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Post by Der Trommler on Jun 11, 2006 21:08:59 GMT -5
Would that be able to connect the Celts to the Greeks? Romans, Greeks, & Egyptians had some inventions that rival the thought process of today....
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 12, 2006 18:06:15 GMT -5
Would that be able to connect the Celts to the Greeks? Romans, Greeks, & Egyptians had some inventions that rival the thought process of today.... There are many references to the Egyptians, and Greeks in the Irish texts, in fact many believe the Tuatha de Danann to have sailed from the north from Greece, and some varriations of the texts say "from Greece". Scota wife of Milidh (Mil) was the daughter of an egytian pharoh, and for the Romans, I think we all know they had many associations with the Celts. The Greeks and Romans would often use Celtic mercinaries for their feirce fighting skills and the fact that they had no fear...In fact it is a documented fact that Alexander once asked one of his Celtic Mercinaries if they feared him (Alexander). The Celts in question replied "No" and Alexander, a little put off asked them what they DID fear?...To which the Celts of Gaul replied, "That the sky will fall on our heads". Obviously they knew this wasn't going to happen.
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Post by wren on Jul 22, 2006 13:56:49 GMT -5
I've read several accounts that discount the idea that Scota was the 'mother' of the Scotland, in my research for my next paper. Other than an Egyptian necklace being found in a grave, there doesn't seem to be much proof of this idea (then again, I'm still reading...)
As for the response of the Celts, would that not come from their vows... 'If I break my word (forgive my paraphrasing here), may the sky fall on my head, may the earth swallow me up..." etc.?
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Post by wren on Jul 25, 2006 19:21:11 GMT -5
It is still very unclear indeed. There is absolutely no record of the term "Celt" being used in connection with the inhabitants of Ireland and Britain prior to the 19th century. Celt was just a name that Romans gave to the western tribes. The where not an empire. Something that still confuses me allot is Ireland though. It has very little connection with the other "Celtic lands" it was like a separate civilization. The Irish did seem to be cut off from the other Celtic lands for a good deal of time I think, however the similarities are very much there and strong, a testament I think to the effectiveness that an oral tradition can sometimes have. I don't think they were cut off from Scotland/Britain, though. I think there would have been trading, etc. After all, they fought together when the occasion arose. To have that kind of alliance (common enemy), I would think there would have been a prior relationship. To me, that would also explain the similarities in Gaelic.
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Post by Senbecc on Jul 26, 2006 2:45:56 GMT -5
The Irish did seem to be cut off from the other Celtic lands for a good deal of time I think, however the similarities are very much there and strong, a testament I think to the effectiveness that an oral tradition can sometimes have. I don't think they were cut off from Scotland/Britain, though. I think there would have been trading, etc. After all, they fought together when the occasion arose. To have that kind of alliance (common enemy), I would think there would have been a prior relationship. To me, that would also explain the similarities in Gaelic. Well for a good deal of time the Irish didn't assocoiate with anyone, and as Marcus said did seem to be evolving seperatly from other Celtic cultures.
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Post by Senbecc on Jul 26, 2006 2:55:05 GMT -5
I've read several accounts that discount the idea that Scota was the 'mother' of the Scotland, in my research for my next paper. Other than an Egyptian necklace being found in a grave, there doesn't seem to be much proof of this idea (then again, I'm still reading...) As for the response of the Celts, would that not come from their vows... 'If I break my word (forgive my paraphrasing here), may the sky fall on my head, may the earth swallow me up..." etc.? An Egyptian necklace? I think I would be asking how an Egyptian necklace would be getting to Ireland if the Irish/Scottish (since both were known as Scots at one time) ties to Egypt have been discounted? Scota was the duaghter of an Egyptian pharoh, and as such of course would be royalty, and as royalty would have been set to a goddesses status. The Celts had a similar philosophy of royalty which may be one reason why a foriener was given such a high status from the get-go. Untill the earth opens up and swallows us Untill the sky falls on our heads Untill the sea rises and overwhelms us We shall keep the faith... -Celtic oath to elements
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Post by wren on Jul 26, 2006 10:04:02 GMT -5
I've read several accounts that discount the idea that Scota was the 'mother' of the Scotland, in my research for my next paper. Other than an Egyptian necklace being found in a grave, there doesn't seem to be much proof of this idea (then again, I'm still reading...) As for the response of the Celts, would that not come from their vows... 'If I break my word (forgive my paraphrasing here), may the sky fall on my head, may the earth swallow me up..." etc.? An Egyptian necklace? I think I would be asking how an Egyptian necklace would be getting to Ireland if the Irish/Scottish (since both were known as Scots at one time) ties to Egypt have been discounted? Scota was the duaghter of an Egyptian pharoh, and as such of course would be royalty, and as royalty would have been set to a goddesses status. The Celts had a similar philosophy of royalty which may be one reason why a foriener was given such a high status from the get-go. Untill the earth opens up and swallows us Untill the sky falls on our heads Untill the sea rises and overwhelms us We shall keep the faith... -Celtic oath to elements I believe they are discounting that Scota is the MOTHER of Scotland, rather than Egypt and the early Scots having been trading partners. After all, some authors credit the 'Scotti' from Ireland as lending their name to Scotland. Others claim it was Scota... I may never get my paper done. So much for a 'Brief History'!
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Post by Senbecc on Jul 26, 2006 10:18:21 GMT -5
An Egyptian necklace? I think I would be asking how an Egyptian necklace would be getting to Ireland if the Irish/Scottish (since both were known as Scots at one time) ties to Egypt have been discounted? Scota was the duaghter of an Egyptian pharoh, and as such of course would be royalty, and as royalty would have been set to a goddesses status. The Celts had a similar philosophy of royalty which may be one reason why a foriener was given such a high status from the get-go. Untill the earth opens up and swallows us Untill the sky falls on our heads Untill the sea rises and overwhelms us We shall keep the faith... -Celtic oath to elements I believe they are discounting that Scota is the MOTHER of Scotland, rather than Egypt and the early Scots having been trading partners. After all, some authors credit the 'Scotti' from Ireland as lending their name to Scotland. Others claim it was Scota... I may never get my paper done. So much for a 'Brief History'! Mother of the Name Scot perhaps but certainly not the people or country I should think. Though wern't the people of Scotti named after Scota?
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Post by wren on Jul 27, 2006 14:29:46 GMT -5
Or.... 'Scotti' meant 'thief'. Or, it referred to the DalRiada. Or... Again, every author sees a different meaning.
Moffat wrote, in 'Before Scotland', "The name Scotti lends some weight to the notion of seaborne raiding. Like Pict, Saxon, Frank and Viking, it appears to have originally been a nom de guerre conferred by the Romans, or at least historians who wrote in Latin. The word probably derived from sgod, Gaelic for sail, and its use might have been transferred to signify a boat much in the way the Saxons talked of theirs as keels. To watching sentinels, Scots may have become quickly synonymous with 'pirates'. If so, the name must refer to their habit of raiding down the British coasts of the Irish Sea." He goes on to discount the idea that the Irish migrated to Argyll, instead suggesting that the movement went in the opposite direction and, earlier, he suggests the DalRiada were, in fact, inhabitants of Argyll since the Iron Age.
Then again, others say different...
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Post by wren on Jul 28, 2006 11:25:38 GMT -5
Interesting reading... would like thoughts on this... "In 1995 Bryan Sykes wrote up his research and showed something amazingly simple - that we are who we were. Far from being a distillate of successive immigrations to these islands, waves of invasions and bouts of bloody genocide or a string of mysterious disappearances, 80 percent of us in Britain are the direct descendants of the hunter-gatherer-fishers who came north after the last Ice Age; 80 percent of us can trace an unbroken lineage to the people who hunted in the wildwood, who gather roots and berries in its glades and who fished our rivers and seas. We are not a mongrol race, a unique mixture of many arrivals over our long history. We are who we were, a very long time ago. Bryan Sykes has shown that the population of Britain has remained stable, with only small admixtures of very influential elites, and that we are undoubted descendants of those whom too many believe to have been bone-gnawing, shaggy, grunting cavemen. What Sykes did was to sample DNA sequences from the modern population and look at the number of mutations which had taken place in those sequences. The latter analysis allowed the sequences to be dated, and most went back at least 10,000 years, to or before the date of the first arrivals in Scotland. He then compared his modern samples with what could be retrieved of prehistoric DNA..." ~ Alaistar Moffat, 'Before Scotland' Also see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheddar_ManIn researching my paper on the history of the Celts in Scotland, I have read numerous conflicting accounts of just who the Celts really were and are. These findings seem to point to a unique group who have been there all along, as opposed to migrations and invasions as the quote says. Any thoughts? Would this point to the Celts being not just a language/culture but also a genetic group as well?
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