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Post by Tom on Oct 9, 2007 10:02:45 GMT -5
I disagree with this. Modern society prevents us from reconstructing Irish Iron Age society and besides, why would we want to? A modern Irish society already exists. I, too, consider myself an Irish reconstructionist/traditionalist. For me, reconstruction is about accurately reviving ancient beliefs and practices but in a contemporary manner. Yet how could one reconstruct accurately their beliefs unless they work to understand their world as well? Understanding is different than rebuilding. Understanding ancient Celtic society and culture is essential for our modern tradition, rebuilding it is not.
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Post by diarmuid on Apr 16, 2008 19:54:19 GMT -5
Mmmm....It is hard to escape the whole Traditionalism vs. Reconstructionism attitude anywhere anymore....
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Apr 19, 2008 14:14:42 GMT -5
Mmmm....It is hard to escape the whole Traditionalism vs. Reconstructionism attitude anywhere anymore.... Why try to escape it?
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Post by diarmuid on Apr 19, 2008 19:57:00 GMT -5
Mmmm....It is hard to escape the whole Traditionalism vs. Reconstructionism attitude anywhere anymore.... Why try to escape it? Why would I want to stay in the line of fire? I had to put up with crap from some traditionalists on the Craobh Crua forums. It is just a nuisance. I personally, mix both methods and consider myself both a trad and recon. But I don't want to hear how being a recon makes my practice invalid by a trad. I just don't have any good experiences with it.
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Post by Senbecc on Apr 19, 2008 23:42:44 GMT -5
Why would I want to stay in the line of fire? I had to put up with crap from some traditionalists on the Craobh Crua forums. It is just a nuisance. I personally, mix both methods and consider myself both a trad and recon. But I don't want to hear how being a recon makes my practice invalid by a trad. I just don't have any good experiences with it. Hmmm, It would be interesting to hear their arguments. Personally I see myself as both a Traditional Irishman, as well as a Reconstructionist. It is hard for me to imagine being one and not the other. To me they seem to complete eachother.
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Post by diarmuid on Apr 20, 2008 13:51:03 GMT -5
Why would I want to stay in the line of fire? I had to put up with crap from some traditionalists on the Craobh Crua forums. It is just a nuisance. I personally, mix both methods and consider myself both a trad and recon. But I don't want to hear how being a recon makes my practice invalid by a trad. I just don't have any good experiences with it. Hmmm, It would be interesting to hear their arguments. Personally I see myself as both a Traditional Irishman, as well as a Reconstructionist. It is hard for me to imagine being one and not the other. To me they seem to complete eachother. I agree. The view I have seen expressed is that recons are tearing apart Irish culture, taking what they want and leaving out the rest. I have corrected them seveal times, but I just can't seem to get it through.....so I gave up. Not worth my time.
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Post by Senbecc on Apr 20, 2008 23:31:17 GMT -5
Hmmm, It would be interesting to hear their arguments. Personally I see myself as both a Traditional Irishman, as well as a Reconstructionist. It is hard for me to imagine being one and not the other. To me they seem to complete eachother. I agree. The view I have seen expressed is that recons are tearing apart Irish culture, taking what they want and leaving out the rest. I have corrected them seveal times, but I just can't seem to get it through.....so I gave up. Not worth my time. LOL, like I said, it would be interesting to see how they support such claims, and how the actions of a few could possibly define a movement that shows such obvious disdain for "picking and choosing". That said, I have met more than a few "traditionalists" who haven't bothered to take the time to learn of their own culture, claiming Irish history began with the coming of Pádraig and the Celtic Church, not to mention those traditionalists who's study of said tradition seems to go no further than the modern Druidic movement. Both movements have their hooligans I think, but it is foolish to allow one's entire perception be altered by the actions of one or two. Recons are almost always seen as the evil villain to be put down, this is usually due to the fact that we ask for proof of claims, and are curious as to how one came to a conclusion. When there is no proof or justification for a claim, then it looks to the individual that the Recon. is trying to make them look unintelligent, which usually isn't the case at all. Never take anything at face value in Celtic spirituality, and NEVER take any one's word for it, until it has withstood your own scrutiny.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Apr 21, 2008 0:10:33 GMT -5
I agree. The view I have seen expressed is that recons are tearing apart Irish culture, taking what they want and leaving out the rest. I have corrected them seveal times, but I just can't seem to get it through.....so I gave up. Not worth my time. I thought those were the reformed and revivalists that did that... Not the recons...
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Post by diarmuid on Apr 21, 2008 16:50:41 GMT -5
I agree. The view I have seen expressed is that recons are tearing apart Irish culture, taking what they want and leaving out the rest. I have corrected them seveal times, but I just can't seem to get it through.....so I gave up. Not worth my time. I thought those were the reformed and revivalists that did that... Not the recons... Haha...that was so last century. Recons are the new threat now. ETA: That was very wise advice Senbecc.
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 17:31:25 GMT -5
Im actually a member of Craobh Crua and know some of the guys personally. They are actually very respected individuals within Ireland and are actual recognised academics on Irish Traditionalism. I think one of the founders is a lecturer in fact.
Yes some members have some very strong views, some that might seem narrowminded to some. But really their compassion for the true values of Irish Gaelic Traditions is outstanding. You will find as well that few of them are 'Pagans'. They are more interested in restoring the true, but few, facts that we do know about the ancient people of Ireland, into modern day Ireland. And sometimes to do that they have to challenge some that present the made up traditions as true traditions.
"The goal then is to ensure that the individual who is looking to further understand and interpret the legends, mythology, folklore, symbolism and indeed the very character of our pre-Christian ancestors can easily bring themselves into the academic fold and stay abreast of current opinion and consensus".
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 2, 2008 17:46:11 GMT -5
The goal then is to ensure that the individual who is looking to further understand and interpret the legends, mythology, folklore, symbolism and indeed the very character of our pre-Christian ancestors can easily bring themselves into the academic fold and stay abreast of current opinion and consensus". ahhh... yes, because group think mentality and conformity are such wonderful things.
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 18:01:08 GMT -5
What do you mean? I dont understand the sentence.
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Post by Senbecc on May 2, 2008 18:09:40 GMT -5
The goal then is to ensure that the individual who is looking to further understand and interpret the legends, mythology, folklore, symbolism and indeed the very character of our pre-Christian ancestors can easily bring themselves into the academic fold and stay abreast of current opinion and consensus". ahhh... yes, because group think mentality and conformity are such wonderful things. Hmm, well sometimes yes, sometimes no. It all depends on how said group uses that mentality. I do see some of the point on the things being said about Reconstruction. For one there is the misconception that Bardic colleges like the Henge of Keltria, O.B.O.D and other such online courses are reconstruction, they of course are not, as any look at the four to many "Celtic" holidays will show. There are more examples, but this is the one that usually sticks out in my mind. Reconstruction and traditionalism are two paths based solely on the traditions and cultures (Unlike the reformed Druids) of past and present Celtic peoples and lands, rebuilding and reinstating such things into a solid practice. Within both however, there are times when educated guess work from scholars are called in. What is common knowledge is usually what makes up such group minds. It is of utmost importance, that what is new knowledge, and what is ancient is kept seperate. I honestly don't see how one group bad mouthing the other to build themselves up contributes, but to each their own. A fact is a fact, it doesn't matter where you live, if you're wrong, you're wrong.
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 18:19:37 GMT -5
Im going to quote the words of another Irish Traditionalist. They would be considered quite controversial to some but i think the arguement is quite a relevant and interesting opinion.
Im not as certain about the Native American part as I am for the most unaware of the relationship between Americans and Native Americans. But the first point I find quite true and wonder what others opinions on this are?
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 2, 2008 18:21:46 GMT -5
Within both however, there are times when educated guess work from scholars are called in. What is common knowledge is usually what makes up such group minds. That's where I see the danger. There very well be a set agenda within that group. Spreading propaganda to serve their own purposes. Then, the weak minded follow suit, why, because they've lost the ability to think for themselves or to have their own opinions and minds.
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