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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 2, 2008 18:23:36 GMT -5
What do you mean? I dont understand the sentence. It means, quite frankly, that I dont' give two shits about "Popular" opinion and "consensus"
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 18:29:35 GMT -5
Within both however, there are times when educated guess work from scholars are called in. What is common knowledge is usually what makes up such group minds. That's where I see the danger. There very well be a set agenda within that group. Spreading propaganda to serve their own purposes. Then, the weak minded follow suit, why, because they've lost the ability to think for themselves or to have their own opinions and minds. Is that group Croabh Crua or a Recons group? Im not sure which group you refer to.
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 18:31:42 GMT -5
What do you mean? I dont understand the sentence. It means, quite frankly, that I dont' give two shits about "Popular" opinion and "consensus" A fair opinion. But im unsre of its context with this. Do you mean that it shouldnt matter wether people are following fact or fiction? Or am i misunderstanding?
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 2, 2008 18:32:21 GMT -5
Im going to quote the words of another Irish Traditionalist. They would be considered quite controversial to some but i think the arguement is quite a relevant and interesting opinion. Im not as certain about the Native American part as I am for the most unaware of the relationship between Americans and Native Americans. But the first point I find quite true and wonder what others opinions on this are? Oh, lookie! The it can only be done in Ireland by the Irish peoples Movement!! 1. to take on the beliefs of the Native American people's, simply because I live in the country that once belonged to them, in my opinion would constitute cultural rape. 2. it seems to me that you're telling Americans that they can't or shouldnt' reconstruct, or follow the beliefs of their ancestors I have not nice things to say, so, I'm going to stop typing now
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 2, 2008 18:33:19 GMT -5
That's where I see the danger. There very well be a set agenda within that group. Spreading propaganda to serve their own purposes. Then, the weak minded follow suit, why, because they've lost the ability to think for themselves or to have their own opinions and minds. Is that group Croabh Crua or a Recons group? Im not sure which group you refer to. I'm not speaking of one specific group, I'm saying that "Group Think" in general, is not a very good idea.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 2, 2008 18:34:45 GMT -5
It means, quite frankly, that I dont' give two shits about "Popular" opinion and "consensus" A fair opinion. But im unsre of its context with this. Do you mean that it shouldnt matter wether people are following fact or fiction? Or am i misunderstanding? Fact is Fact. There are sources that back up fact. Popular opinion and Group consensus are just that, popular opinion. there is no fact involved
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Post by Senbecc on May 2, 2008 18:45:06 GMT -5
Im going to quote the words of another Irish Traditionalist. They would be considered quite controversial to some but i think the arguement is quite a relevant and interesting opinion. Im not as certain about the Native American part as I am for the most unaware of the relationship between Americans and Native Americans. But the first point I find quite true and wonder what others opinions on this are? Land is of course one thing, though the scholars that further tradition though workings in Celtic studies have as many Americans in them as Irishmen, Welsh, Manx, Scottish or anyone else. Why? It's called Celtic blood and ancestry. I am not a Lakota - though I live on the land that was originally theirs. I think it would be "misguided" to call myself one of them...lol. My opinion is that this is another example of we're in Ireland, we know. Which again is not an argument by any stretch of the imagination. Pagan Celtic belief systems were completely intertwined with our land(s) and our physical surroundings and adapted over thousands of years in that precise context, i.e. in the context of their specific geographical locations.Pagan Celtic culture didn't evolve fully in Ireland either, it came from all over Europe. In fact Ireland is one of the very last countries to be populated by the Celts, so history shows us that the Celts felt their spirituality can move from place to place and still be in tact, made obvious by their migratory history. It seems idiotic to me to make the claim that to reconstruct a Celtic path one needs to be in Ireland....lol
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 18:47:10 GMT -5
Im going to quote the words of another Irish Traditionalist. They would be considered quite controversial to some but i think the arguement is quite a relevant and interesting opinion. Im not as certain about the Native American part as I am for the most unaware of the relationship between Americans and Native Americans. But the first point I find quite true and wonder what others opinions on this are? Oh, lookie! The it can only be done in Ireland by the Irish peoples Movement!! 1. to take on the beliefs of the Native American people's, simply because I live in the country that once belonged to them, in my opinion would constitute cultural rape. 2. it seems to me that you're telling Americans that they can't or shouldnt' reconstruct, or follow the beliefs of their ancestors I have not nice things to say, so, I'm going to stop typing now Im just trying to convey a viewpoint. Irish traditions were based on the land they lived in, that is a fact. So it is very difficult for someone in a completely alien environment to follow that tradition. Its hard enough for modern day Irish people. What happens with modern day reconstructionism in North America (and some other countries) is that Irish tradition is being adapted into a culture different from its own. That is not Traditionalism, it is diluting the facts to suit ones own culture. And it happens in Ireland to by the way, im not trying to say that this only happens in America. On your point about cultural rape. How is trying to take on an Irish tradition any different from a Native American one?
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 18:51:27 GMT -5
On Senbeccs point:
No im not saying a celtic path im saying an Irish path.
The celts migrated yes but they still attuned their traditions and beliefs to the lands they populated. This is why all celtic cultures although for the most part quite similar, have their differences. Because each culture was attuned to its own unique land.
That is why I question how one can follow a distinct celtic path, ie an Irish one, when they are not attuned to the land.
I think what im saying is that a celt in america should attune onself to their own land that surrounds them. the one that they breathe and touch. not one they are not a part off.
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Post by Senbecc on May 2, 2008 18:58:09 GMT -5
Oh, lookie! The it can only be done in Ireland by the Irish peoples Movement!! 1. to take on the beliefs of the Native American people's, simply because I live in the country that once belonged to them, in my opinion would constitute cultural rape. 2. it seems to me that you're telling Americans that they can't or shouldnt' reconstruct, or follow the beliefs of their ancestors I have not nice things to say, so, I'm going to stop typing now Im just trying to convey a viewpoint. Irish traditions were based on the land they lived in, that is a fact. So it is very difficult for someone in a completely alien environment to follow that tradition. Its hard enough for modern day Irish people. What happens with modern day reconstructionism in North America (and some other countries) is that Irish tradition is being adapted into a culture different from its own. That is not Traditionalism, it is diluting the facts to suit ones own culture. And it happens in Ireland to by the way, im not trying to say that this only happens in America. On your point about cultural rape. How is trying to take on an Irish tradition any different from a Native American one? Irish Tradition immigrated to Ireland, just as so many Irish have immigrated to America Marcus...That is just a statement of fact. The difference between me claiming to be a Lakota or an Irishman is in the simply fact that I'm not a Lakota...I'm not even a Native American. My grandparents were from Ireland, I grew up living the traditions. Were they not Irish because they migrated? That is not Traditionalism, it is diluting the facts to suit ones own culture. And it happens in Ireland to by the way,Is it not also deluding the facts to claim that tradition in Ireland is solely Irish? Given that so many other countries were involved in making those traditions?
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 2, 2008 18:58:24 GMT -5
Oh, lookie! The it can only be done in Ireland by the Irish peoples Movement!! 1. to take on the beliefs of the Native American people's, simply because I live in the country that once belonged to them, in my opinion would constitute cultural rape. 2. it seems to me that you're telling Americans that they can't or shouldnt' reconstruct, or follow the beliefs of their ancestors I have not nice things to say, so, I'm going to stop typing now Im just trying to convey a viewpoint. Irish traditions were based on the land they lived in, that is a fact. So it is very difficult for someone in a completely alien environment to follow that tradition. Its hard enough for modern day Irish people. What happens with modern day reconstructionism in North America (and some other countries) is that Irish tradition is being adapted into a culture different from its own. That is not Traditionalism, it is diluting the facts to suit ones own culture. And it happens in Ireland to by the way, im not trying to say that this only happens in America. On your point about cultural rape. How is trying to take on an Irish tradition any different from a Native American one? If my ancestors were Irish, then how is it cultural rape?
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 19:09:57 GMT -5
Modern Irish have as much Viking and Anglo Saxon in them as Gaelic so blood lines is irrelevant in this. It is culture we are speaking of.
When the celts migrated into Europe they each went different ways and when they settled in their separate lands they attuned their traditions to that land. I think ive said that point before.
So if the celts then again some how made their way over to america and settled there they would have been different again and attuned themselves to that land. After generations they would have attuned themselves to their new land as they had done all over europe.
I can understand why someone would want to consider themself following Irish traditions in America, especially when their ancestors were from Ireland. But one cannot follow the same path as the ancient irish because they are not in the land that that tradition belonged to. The land itself is essential to that tradition.
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 19:20:15 GMT -5
Im not very sure how to articulate my words on this topic but im trying my best
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Post by Senbecc on May 2, 2008 19:24:28 GMT -5
On Senbeccs point: No im not saying a celtic path im saying an Irish path. Yes - I understand that you're talking about the Irish, but the Irish do fall into the Celtic catagory. They are known as Insular Celts, which invoves the Manx, the Irish, and the Scottish. Well now you seem to be making my point for me. Many Irish have migrated to the USA, and like those who migrated to Ireland teach their traditions to their children and their children's children and attune to their native lands just as those who came to Ireland. As for "attuning" to the beliefs of the lands they came to, this is a 1/2 truth. Archaeology has uncovered several battle fields in Ireland where stone weapons were pitted against bronze ones, which shows that they wern't simply attuning. Now you're loosing me. You just said above that the Celts (including the Irish) are a migritory race of people. No Celtic migration as you your self just said included droping the beliefs of lands they're "no longer a part of". Seems a strange idea give the importance of history and tradition to all Celtic cultures. Who is to say they are not attuned to the land around them? You? LoL, I am very attuned to it, though the names of my gods are Gaelic, not Lakota.
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 19:26:09 GMT -5
Im just trying to convey a viewpoint. Irish traditions were based on the land they lived in, that is a fact. So it is very difficult for someone in a completely alien environment to follow that tradition. Its hard enough for modern day Irish people. What happens with modern day reconstructionism in North America (and some other countries) is that Irish tradition is being adapted into a culture different from its own. That is not Traditionalism, it is diluting the facts to suit ones own culture. And it happens in Ireland to by the way, im not trying to say that this only happens in America. On your point about cultural rape. How is trying to take on an Irish tradition any different from a Native American one? If my ancestors were Irish, then how is it cultural rape? I suppose it really depends on ones interpretation of culture. For some people its all about blood. For me culture is in the land and those that inhabit it. Blood lines isnt as relevant because the blood the irish carry now is very different from the ancient gaels.
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