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Post by wren on Jan 7, 2007 19:23:20 GMT -5
Ok, a little lesson....According to the couple of books/cassettes I am reading/listening to, aside from the different forms of Irish (Ulster, Connacht, Munster). There are different dialects. So, when speaking Irish, it's correct & shouldn't be a problem. Example: Conas ata tu? (How are you?) Cad e mar ata tu? (How are you?) Also: Go maith (Go my) or (Go mah) or (Go maw) Apparently, they are related & work much the same. So, to hear, 'Cad e mar ata tu?' (Kajee mah-tah two)...you would understand & be able to reply. If you guys would like, I can use the Irish-English dictionary here (has a very open way of phrasing). But the meanings are just the same. I've been working heavily on a book/cassette called "Irish on your own!" This is the main basis of the information I have been using (I had other books but were much too formal). I would love to have your input here! The more we share, the more we all learn!
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Post by Der Trommler on Jan 9, 2007 1:13:21 GMT -5
Diction/phrasing Bearla-Gaelic (in this lesson, it's just about the words & phrasing) This also is using the International Phoenetic Symbols.
side note-I apologize for not having the fada's. Also, caol le caol agus leathan le leathan (slender with slender & broad with broad....referring to the type of vowel on each side of consonant. Broad vowels-a,o,u Slender vowels-e,i
Bearla- (baeurLu) or (bearla)- English Chlog-[klog]-clock, bell (for use of time)
Numerology-Uimhir [Ever] 0=Naid [nahdge] (there is a fada over the a) 1=Haon [hee-on] 2=Do [fada over the o...doh! lol] 3=Tri [fada over the i...tree] 4=Ceathair [kyahir or Cathair without the 't'] 5=Cuig [fada over the u, kooig or kooeek] 6=Se [fada over the e, Shay] 7=Seacht [Shahkt] 8=Hocht [hokt] 9=Naoi [nee or n-o-ee (the 'o' is barely pronounced) 10=Deich [Jeh or J-eye] In certain words there is a seimhiu (shay-vu) or lenition that will cause a change in sound. So in numbers, 11 is Haon deag [Heen-jeg] but twelve becomes Do dheag [do-yeg]. The rest of the numbers in the teens (14,15, etc..) follow the pattern of 11 ie; tri deag (13) [tree-jeg] (it is also noted that there is supposed to have 'a' preceding numbers, yet in everyday speech, it is not usually spoken unless it follows the word uimhir [ever] (number) Ie: uimhir a cuig (number 5)
So as I am learning Irish, the main thing is that most words sound alike but the way they are spoken in everday differ, much like the way english is spoken in England or America. Dialects & speech patterns will throw you off but you can still manage on how to understand others speaking Irish.
This is a baby lesson as I have to really read what Wren wrote so I can actually help a bit more.
By the way Wren, this is amazing!!!
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Ogden
Thinker
I don't believe in magick- I know.
Posts: 86
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Post by Ogden on Jan 9, 2007 1:29:55 GMT -5
Damn. And people say Japanese is hard to learn...
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Post by Der Trommler on Jan 9, 2007 10:16:30 GMT -5
Damn. And people say Japanese is hard to learn... This is one of the issues I've got. I think most of it has to do with that Gaelic (Irish) almost became extinct. In 1893 Conradh na Gaelic (The Gaelic League) was formed to revive this language. But this was after scholars (notably Germans) began to unravel the mysteries of 'Old Irish' & Irish studies became a recognized scholarly pursuit. So, the languauge had come back but I think parts of it sort of morphed as english had (Old English, Queen's English). But yes, I found a little daunting. I've been working on chapter's 1-7 for almost 3 months now. It's not that I can't learn it as much as I want to be able to pick at least one way of speaking the language before trying to learn it another way. That's why I gave up on the formal book (I believe in Munster dialect).
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Post by wren on Jan 9, 2007 12:01:00 GMT -5
I think it is also difficult for me because I have no one with whom I can practice out loud. The one and only tape in the library is damaged (grrrrrrrrrrr...). But, I carry on with my friends here... new lessons up soon! And, thanks so much, dmmdrums, for your assistance with this!
Together we shall prevail!
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Post by Der Trommler on Jan 9, 2007 20:20:05 GMT -5
I think it is also difficult for me because I have no one with whom I can practice out loud. The one and only tape in the library is damaged (grrrrrrrrrrr...). But, I carry on with my friends here... new lessons up soon! And, thanks so much, dmmdrums, for your assistance with this! Together we shall prevail! Thank you & I agree. My significant other isn't into the language as much as I am. So, I really don't do as well. Once I get Irish down fairly well....It's on to Scottish Gaelic as well as Welsh (as they are related!!) Anyway, I guess I will try to figure out the different dialects (Munster, Ulster, & Connacht) & go from there (ironically, my family name Murray is also known for Ulster as well as being Scottish where their origins began)
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Post by Der Trommler on Jan 9, 2007 22:33:09 GMT -5
Ok, so what I can say is not much but it makes me happy knowing that I am on a road I've wanted to be on for a long time..... (sample) Cad e mar ata tu? (how are you?) Go maith, go raibh maith agat. Agus tu fein? (go my, go da my agut. Agus two haine?....fine, thank you. And yourself?) Go brea (it was noted here that go maith is not repeated on purpose & go brea (go breah) is used instead meaning the same thing) Slan go foill (goodbye for now) Slan (go foill is also not repeated) So, goes the beginning into Ulster...I can say a bit more & the little tidbits I've put in are either this or the Irish-English dictionary (which is a bit of a combination)
The only problem I have is that all the books come with cassettes!! cassettes!!! You know, the 8-track of the eighties & nineties!! Talk about when these people speak in native tongue & with an accent.....yeah, I'm wearing out the tape!!! lol
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Post by Der Trommler on Jan 11, 2007 0:06:17 GMT -5
Ok...got the fada's!!!
Haló (hello) Cad é mar atá sibh? (how are you (plural)) Tá mé go maith (I am fine...to answer, you can just say go maith. Cad é an sloinne atá ort? (Kah-jee-n sluh-new a-tort)
(I threw this in because Sloinne means surname & Ireland thrives on surnames....otherwise Tomás Ó Riain turns to the simple english name of Tom Ryan (doesn't it just look cooler that way!!!!)
Ok, so the Irish alphabet is similar to it's english counterpart minus these letters: j,k,q,v,w,x,y,z....Now, you may see sometimes a borrowed word from english jab (meaning job) or veain (van)....there are only a few times you will see this. The fada changes the the word in sound as well as meaning. Like solas (light) & sólas (comfort)
So, I guess my language lessons will be from the Ulster dialect (not to throw anyone off.....just a bit of history from my family as I unfold it & find out the books I gravitated towards connected!)
So....staying sloinne: Mac (son) or Ó (grandson) for the men & boys For girls & unmarried women that begin with Ó, Ní will be at the begining. For some married women, Bean Uí (wife of) or just Uí before their sloinne. If the sloinne begins with Mac, girls/unmarried women will have Nic (daughter of) at the beginning & married women can have Bean Mhic (wife of) or just Mhic at the beginning of theirs. (did you notice the séimhiú (Bean Mhic)?
More a little later...I'm psyched about the fada's!!!
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Post by Der Trommler on Jan 11, 2007 10:46:22 GMT -5
C'ainm atá ort? (can-im ah tort....What's your name?) C'ainm atá ortsa? (can-im ah tortsa) What's your name? You can respond to this with just your name.
to introduce yourself prior: Is mise (s'meesha) or Mise (meesha) then your name....
That's all I can do for now....Slán go fóill. Chífidh mé tú [tchifih mah-two)....(goodbye for now. I'll see you)
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Post by wren on Jan 11, 2007 12:43:47 GMT -5
Thanks so much for all this!
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Post by Der Trommler on Jan 11, 2007 20:07:27 GMT -5
Tá failte romhat....go raibh maith agat....
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Post by Der Trommler on Jan 11, 2007 20:48:26 GMT -5
There is no straight yes/no answer in Irish....You have to listen to the question & answer.....Although: Tá (yes) Níl (no) These seem to work in many answers but: An dtuigeann tú Gaeilge? [doe-gan two gay-lick] (do you understand Irish?) Tuigim [two-gum] (I do understand) Ní thuigim [nee-ho-gum] (I don't underdstand) or..... Beágan [bag-ann] or [be-gann] (a little)
Back to caol le caol agus leathan le leathan (slender with slender & broad with broad) Broad vowels: a,o,u Slender vowels: e & i
Broad example: coimhéadaigí Slender example chífidh mé
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Post by wren on Jan 12, 2007 14:50:32 GMT -5
According to the book, Ulster, Go Maith is a shorter version of Ta me go maith (I am fine). Read above & remembered..... So, when I can, I will read the rest above......Wren, what version is this? Ulster, Munster, or Connacht? These lessons here are not based on any specific regional dialect or area of Ireland. They are intended to be very general in terms of meaning and pronunciation.
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Post by wren on Jan 12, 2007 14:52:09 GMT -5
PRONUNCIATION
Two letter groups, "adh" and "agh", are usually pronounced (eye) when in accented syllables inside a word. Here are examples for "adh":
adharc (EYE-uhrk), horn
radharc (REYE-uhrk), sight
Tadhg (teyeg), Tadhg, a man's name
gadhar (GEYE-uhr), hound
fadhb (feyeb), problem
Some examples for "agh":
aghaidh (EYE-ee), face
laghad (LEYE-uhd), least
slaghdán (SLEYE-daw*n), a cold, hay fever
Ó Raghallaigh (oh REYE-lee), O'Reilly
If the letter group "adh" is at a word end or in an unaccented syllable, it does not take the (eye) sound. For example:
samhradh (SOU-ruh), summer; ionadh (OON-uh), wonder. Many verbal nouns are similar: dúnadh (DOON-uh), closing; briseadh (BRISH-uh), breaking; glanadh (GLUHN-uh), cleaning.
VOCABULARY
Masculine Nouns
néal, na néalta (nay*l, nuh NAY*L-tuh), cloud, the clouds
biseach (BI-shahk*), recovery
slaghdán (SLEYE-daw*n) a cold
Feminine Nouns
feoil, an fheoil (FYOH-il, un OH-il), meat, the meat
beoir, an bheoir (BYOH-ir, un VYOH-ir), beer, the beer
bain, ag baineadh (bwin, uh BWIN-uh), cut, reap; also part of expressions such as "bain diot an cóta" (bwin DEE-uht un KOH-tuh), take off your coat.
ith, ag ithe (i, eg I-he), eat
ag ithe an aráin (un uh-RAW*-in), eating the bread
ag ithe an bhricfeasta (vrik-FAS-tuh), eating the breakfast
ag ithe mo lóin (muh LOH-in), eating my lunch
ag ithe feola (FYOH-luh), eating meat
ag ithe prátaí (PRAW*-tee), eating potatoes
á ithe (aw* I-he), eating it
á ithe sin, eating that
á ithe seo, eating this
Tá biseach orm (OH-ruhm), I am recovering
cnag, ag cnagadh (kuh-NAHG, uh kuh-NAHG-uh), knock; as in "ag cnagadh ar an doras", knocking at the door
ól, ag ól (ohl, eg OHL), drink
ag ól bainne (BAHN-ye), drinking milk
ag ól tae (tay*), drinking tea
ag ól uisce (ISH-ke), drinking water
ag ól caife (KAHF-e), drinking coffee
ag ól mo chaife (muh K*AHF-e), drinking my coffee
ag ól beorach (BYOH-ruhk*), drinking beer
á ól (aw* ohl), drinking it
á ól sin, drinking that
á ól seo, drinking this
féach, ag féachaint ar (FAY*-ahk, uh FAY*-uhk*-int er) looking at
Tá slaghdán ort (OH-ruht), you have a cold
NOTES ON VOCABULARY
This vocabulary gives you many phrases combining "ag ithe" and "ag ól" with nouns. The drills for the next few weeks will stress these to familiarize you with ways of phrase formation.
The forms "ag ithe", "ag cur", etc., are often followed by nouns in the genitive case, becoming in English : "of the _____". "Ag ithe feola" is literally "at eating of meat". The genitive case of Irish nouns is formed in several ways. You will gradually learn to recognize these, so that you can form the case for new words. Some nouns don't change at all for the genitive, such as "bainne". Others may change a final broad consonant to a slender, such as "lón, an lóin", or "arán, an aráin". A few nouns add a syllable, such as "beoir, na beorach" or "feoil, na feola".
In Irish, you don't "have" illnesses. Instead, they are "on" you. "Tá slaghdán ar Shéamas" means "James has a cold". Recovery,happiness, sorrow, anger and the like are also "on" you.
CONVERSATION
Nioclás (NEE-klaw*s): Éist (ay*sht)! Tá duine éigin ag cnagadh ar an doras (taw* DIN-e AY*-gin uh kuh-NAHG-uh er un DUH-ruhs). Listen! Someone is knocking on the door.
Córa (KOH-ruh): Cé hé sin (kay* hay* shin) ag an doras? Who's that at the door?
Seán: Seán anseo. Oscail an doras agus lig isteach sa teach mé. It's John here. Open the door and let me in the house. Tá sé ag cur báistí amuigh anseo (uh KUR BAW*SH-tee uh MWEE un-SHUH). It's raining out here.
Nioclás: O, tá tú anseo faoi dheireadh (fwee YER-uh). Fan nóiméad, más é do thoil é (fahn NOH-may*d, MAW* shay* duh HIL ay*). -- Isteach leat, a Sheáin (ish-TYAHK* lat, uh HYAW*-in). Oh, you are here at last. Wait a minute please. -- In with you, John.
Seán: Dia daoibh, a Niocláis agus a Chóra (DEE-uh yeev, uh NEE-klaw*sh AH-guhs uh K*OH-ruh). Hello, Nicholas and Cora.
Córa: Dia's Muire duit, a Sheáin. Conas tá tú ar chor ar bith? (HUHR er bi) Hello, John. How are you, anyway?
Seán: Tá me go maith, agus conas tá sibh (shiv) féin? I am well and how are you yourselves?
Nioclás: Táimid go maith leis, ach tá slaghdán ar Chóra. We are well, too, but Cora has a cold.
Córa: Tá biseach orm anois (uh-NISH), áfach (AW*-fuhk*). I am recovering now, however.
Nioclás: Bain diot an cóta, a Sheáin. Take off your coat, John. Ina dhiaidh sin (in-uh YEE-uh shin), tar amach i seomra an bhidh (tahr uh-MAHK* i SHOHM-ruh un VEE), agus bíodh (BEE-ohk*) cupán tae agat (uh-GUHT). After that, come out into the dining room and have a cup of tea.
Córa: Oíche dhorcha is ea í (EE-hye GUHR-uh-huh sha ee). Féach ar na néalta dubha (nuh NAY*L-tuh DOOV-uh). A dark night it is. Look at the black clouds.
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Post by wren on Jan 12, 2007 14:55:11 GMT -5
PRONUNCIATION
The letter group "omh" in a word often gets the sound of (oh). This sound is held for the same length of time as "ó". Examples are: romham (ROH-uhm), before me; romhat (ROH-uht), before you; comhar (KOH-uhr), aid; comhairle (KOHR-le), council, advice; comhrá (KOH-raw*), conversation; fómhar (FOH-uhr), autumn; comhacht (KOH-uhk*t), power; comhlacht (KOH-luhk*t), a corporation.
GRAMMAR
To say "I had a book", rather than "I have a book", you merely replace "tá" by "bhí", as in:
Bhí leabhar agam (vee LOU-wuhr uh-GUHM), I had a book. The literal meaning is, of course, "There was a book at me".
Forms for "had" parallel those needed to express "have". Here is practice reading to help you recognize and use the forms. Only the new or less familiar words have a pronunciation guide directly after them.
Bhí airgead (AR-i-guhd) agam inné. Nach raibh bainne agat? Níl mórán bainne againn anois. Tá scian ag Tomás. An raibh cóta ag an mac? Nach bhfuil nuachtán agat? Ní raibh cnaipe (kuh-NAHP-e) ag an gcóta.
An bhfuil carr aige? Níl caife nó tae aici. Nach raibh bróg ag Peadar? Bhí bord mór acu. An bhfuil léine mhaith aige? Tá leabhar agaibh. An raibh mála bán aici? Nach bhfuil hataí acu? Ní raibh ceann (kyoun) eile agam.
The pronunciation guide and translation for these sentences follow:
vee AR-i-guhd uh-GUHM in-YAY*. nahk* rev BAHN-ye uh-GUHT? neel moh-RAW*N BAHN-ye uh-GIN uh-NISH. taw* SHKEE-uhn eg toh-MAW*S. un rev KOH-tuh eg un MAHK? nahk* vwil NOO-uhk*-taw*n uh-GUHT? nee rev kuh-NAHP-e eg un GOH-tuh.
un vwil KAHR eg-GE? neel KAH-fe noh tay* a-KI. nahk* rev brohg eg PAD-uhr? vee bohrd mohr ah-KUH. un vwil LAY*-ne vwah eg-GE? taw* LOU-wir uh-GIV. un rev MAW*-luh baw*n a-KI? nahk* vwil HAHT-ee ah-KUH? nee rev kyoun EL-e uh-GUHM.
I had money yesterday. Didn't you have milk? We don't have much milk now. Thomas has a knife. DId the son have a coat? Don't you have a newspaper? The coat didn't have a button.
Has he a car? She doesn't have coffee or tea.. Didn't Peter have a shoe? They had a large table. Has he a good shirt? You have books. Did she have a white bag? Don't they have hats? I didn't have another one.
DRILL
It is necessary for you to practice with masculine and feminine nouns accompanied by adjectives, so that you will be familiar with the changes needed. Here are some drill expressions. Go over them until you are completely in mastery of them: Máthair mhaith (MAW*-hir vwah); an mháthair mhaith (un VWAW*-hir vwah); mo mháthair mhaith (muh VWAW*-hir vwah).
cailín maith (kah-LEEN mah); an cailín maith; do chailín maith (duh k*ah-LEEN mah).
bróg shalach (brohg huh-LAHK*); an bhróg shalach (un vrohg huh-LAHK*); a bhróg shalach (uh vrohg huh-LAHK*).
bord salach; an bord salach; ár mbord salach ( aw*r mohrd suh-LAHK*).
traein fhada (tray*n AH-duh); an traein fhada; do thraein fhada.
carr fada; an carr fada; mo charr fada ( muh K*AHR FAH-duh).
cathaoir chrua (KAH-heer K*ROO-uh), a hard chair; an chathaoir chrua (un K*AH-heer K*ROO-uh); a cathaoir chrua, her hard chair.
cóta beag (KOH-tuh byuhg); an cóta beag; mo chóta beag (muh K*OH-tuh byuhg).
sráid dheas (sraw*d yas), a nice street; an tsráid dheas (un traw*d yas); a shráid dheas (uh hraw*d yas), his nice street.
fuinneog ghlan (fwin-YOHG gluhn); an fhuinneog ghlan (un in-YOHG gluhn); do fhuinneog ghlan (duh in-YOHG gluhn). fear mór (far mohr); an fear mór; do fhear mór (duh ar mohr).
scian ghéar (SHKEE-uhn yay*r), a sharp knife; an scian ghéar; mo scian ghéar (muh SHKEE-uhn yay*r).
pingin bheag (PEENG-in vyuhg), a small penny; an phingin bheag (un FEENG-in vyuhg); mo phingin bheag.
These changes are annoying to you at first, but a little practice will make them seem very natural. Writing them out after you have gone over the pronunciation several times is another good way to become used to the changes required.
The verbal nouns with "tá" and "bhí" also require some drilling. Repeat this drill until you can do it with full understanding and without hesitation: Nach bhfuil Seán ag léamh sa chistin? (nahk* vwil shaw*n uh LAY*-uhv suh HYISH-tin). Níl sé ag léamh sa chistin. An bhfuil sé ag léamh thuas an staighre? (HOO-uhs un STEYE-ruh). Tá sé ag léamh ansin.
Nach raibh do mháthair ag caint leat? (uh KEYENT lat) Ní raibh sí uh caint liom (luhm) An raibh sí ag caint le Máire? (MAW*-re) Bhí sí ag caint le Máire agus le Bríd, freisin (le BREED FRESH-in).
Nach bhfuil ár n-athair ag scríobh na litreach? (nahk* vwil aw*r NA-hir uh SHKREEV nuh LI-trahk*), writing the letter? Níl sé ag scríobh na litreach. An bhfuil sé ag obair sa bhaile? (eg OH-bir suh VWAH-le) Tá sé ag obair sa ghairdín (suh gahr-DEEN).
Nach raibh cat agaibh? (uh-GIV) Ní raibh cat againn anuraidh (uh-GINN uh-NOOR-ee), last year. An raibh madra agaibh? Bhí madra álainn againn anuraidh.
Nach bhfuil nuachtán agat? (NOO-uhk*taw*n uh-GUHT) Níl nuachtán ar bith agam. An bhfuil airgead agat (AR-i-guhd uh-GUHT), have you money? Tá mórán airgid agam (moh-RAW*N AR-i-gid uh-GUHM), I have a lot of money.
Nach raibh cathaoir eile agat sa teach? (KAH-heer EL-e) Ní raibh ach cathaoir amháin againn (uh-WAW*-in uh-GIN), we had only one chair. An raibh bord agaibh? O, bhí dhá bhord againn (GAW* vwohrd uh-GIN), We had two tables.
Note: The word for "two" of anything (except persons) is "dhá" (gaw*), and it is followed by the aspirated singular. Examples: dhá bhád (gaw* VWAW*D), two boats; dhá léine, two shirts; dhá fháinne (gaw* AW*-nye), two rings; dhá chat (gaw* K*AHT), two cats.
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