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Post by Marcus on Feb 13, 2007 10:04:18 GMT -5
Np problem Tiffany! For me it is the culture that is the fundamental part of my path. It is that reason that I was never drawn to wicca. It is the same with most ancient religions. Culture/family/heritage is fundamentally important. New Age religions do not have a culture and therfore take from other cultures to create their own paths. The reason why there is so much debate between Celtic recons etc and Wiccans is because that due to wicca being such a popular path many young kids who become interested in paganism immediately see wicca when they go searching. They then believe that what is written in wiccan books is an actual culture. I agree, however as I said I personally have no problem with Celtic and Faery Wicca as it is having been a part of my past, but it's when they start to claim their practice as something that was actually a practice of the ancient Celts that I take issue. I watch traditionalist Wiccans (Or wanna be Traditionalists?) flame other traditions of Wicca for not having their facts straight (usually the depth of this argument is "Because I say so) then claim that Wicca is a "mystery tradition" from the Isle of Mann and therefore they have every right to say their path is Celtic or Druidic when it is obvious that it isn't then I must say I take issue with it. Exactly! I feel we are argueing the same point. I myself would never turn around to someone and say that their path is "wrong", i believe that having faith in anything is better than having no faith at all. However just as you say John when they start to claim their practice as something that was actually a practice of the ancient Celts it is then that I am actually offended.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Feb 13, 2007 18:03:02 GMT -5
Exactly! I feel we are argueing the same point. I myself would never turn around to someone and say that their path is "wrong", i believe that having faith in anything is better than having no faith at all. However just as you say John when they start to claim their practice as something that was actually a practice of the ancient Celts it is then that I am actually offended. [/b] I just dont see why this would be a reason to find onself becoming offended...Obviously, if you know that what someone is stating is untrue, why not attempt to educate someone that is so misinformed? To me, there is just no reason at all to become offended... Either educate... or walk away... Blessings, ~lala
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Post by Marcus on Feb 13, 2007 18:26:11 GMT -5
Exactly! I feel we are argueing the same point. I myself would never turn around to someone and say that their path is "wrong", i believe that having faith in anything is better than having no faith at all. However just as you say John when they start to claim their practice as something that was actually a practice of the ancient Celts it is then that I am actually offended. [/b] I just dont see why this would be a reason to find onself becoming offended...Obviously, if you know that what someone is stating is untrue, why not attempt to educate someone that is so misinformed? To me, there is just no reason at all to become offended... Either educate... or walk away... Blessings, ~lala[/quote] I get offended because if a wiccan has any idea about their own path they will know that it is not the same path or culture or way of life that the ancient tribes of europe followed. Therfore when they say it is the same religion they are not being truthful and they know this. They then misinform alot of young people who grow to believe that they are following a similar path to their ancestors. It destroys culture because the origional real culture keeps getting diluted into new age religions that claim that they are the origional culture. However I would not have a problem with a wiccan that says that they know they are borrowing from other cultures to create their own personal path. As I said i believe to have faith in anything is better than no faith at all.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Feb 13, 2007 18:42:39 GMT -5
I get offended because if a wiccan has any idea about their own path they will know that it is not the same path or culture or way of life that the ancient tribes of europe followed. Therfore when they say it is the same religion they are not being truthful and they know this. They then misinform alot of young people who grow to believe that they are following a similar path to their ancestors. It destroys culture because the origional real culture keeps getting diluted into new age religions that claim that they are the origional culture. However I would not have a problem with a wiccan that says that they know they are borrowing from other cultures to create their own personal path. As I said i believe to have faith in anything is better than no faith at all. Yet again... I simply think that this is no reason to become offended.... Since you see the younger generation being misinformed... It would fall to those who know the truth of things to educate... To Set it right... Not to become offended...
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Post by Marcus on Feb 13, 2007 18:58:14 GMT -5
I get offended because if a wiccan has any idea about their own path they will know that it is not the same path or culture or way of life that the ancient tribes of europe followed. Therfore when they say it is the same religion they are not being truthful and they know this. They then misinform alot of young people who grow to believe that they are following a similar path to their ancestors. It destroys culture because the origional real culture keeps getting diluted into new age religions that claim that they are the origional culture. However I would not have a problem with a wiccan that says that they know they are borrowing from other cultures to create their own personal path. As I said i believe to have faith in anything is better than no faith at all. Yet again... I simply think that this is no reason to become offended.... Since you see the younger generation being misinformed... It would fall to those who know the truth of things to educate... To Set it right... Not to become offended... I would not be offended by the younger generation who have been mislead I would be offended by those who claim to be following an ancient religion when infact they are not and they know they are not. Culture is fundamental to my belief system and when someone purposly uses it to mislead young lost spirits I become offended. That in my opinion and the opinion of many others is a reason to be offended. But like you said it is up to us to teach them the truth and lead them upon the path of our ancestors.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Feb 13, 2007 19:07:40 GMT -5
I would not be offended by the younger generation who have been mislead I would be offended by those who claim to be following an ancient religion when infact they are not and they know they are not. Culture is fundamental to my belief system and when someone purposly uses it to mislead young lost spirits I become offended. That in my opinion and the opinion of many others is a reason to be offended. But like you said it is up to us to teach them the truth and lead them upon the path of our ancestors. I will agree, Culture is a fundamental ingredient to many belief systems... However... Religious beliefs being twisted and bent to fit what people would have it be, is something that has been happening since the beginning of religion... While I can understand that it would be frustrating... I see no reason to waste that kind of energy in being offended... Otherwises... I would think that you would be offended 98.9% of the time... I feel like that would make someone a very bitter person indeed.. I accept that people are going to skew things... I teach those that are willing to learn... I accept the fact that many will not be open to being educated.. As this is not something that I can force, I just accept it and move on...... Why waste vast amounts of energy on being offended by how people choose to believe in things? Blessings ~lala
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Post by Marcus on Feb 13, 2007 19:21:16 GMT -5
When my culture is being destroyed, all around me, it is difficult not to become frustrated. I dont think it is a waste of time or energy to try to save that culture. And it certainly does not make me a bitter person.......yes i get frustrated......but when I do glimpse that culture, that the ancients once loved, I am exultant! And I know that I must spend all of my energy trying to increase that glimpse.
When individuals dilute the old ways it means that sooner or later the younger generation will never be able to see what their ancestors truly believed in. That imo is a great offence keeping someone from finding their true heritage.
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Post by wren on Feb 13, 2007 19:57:00 GMT -5
I understand, Marcus, but isn't that the point of sites like this one? Isn't this a place where you can educate those who have possibly been misdirected before? Isn't that the very obligation of those who have come to understand this problem?
I have great respect for anyone who pursues a path of faith in which they educate themselves, immerse themselves in the culture of that path and then teach those who come after them. Any path... I, for one, am of Scottish heritage and see a great benefit in learning not only the history but the language of my ancestors. As a student of druidry, I also study the texts and language of Ireland and Wales and other Celtic countries to further my understanding of those who walked this path before me. I likewise encourage any new to this path to do the same.
It is in places like this that we can make that difference.
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 14, 2007 8:22:34 GMT -5
Well, I get the feeling I've opened up a whole new can of worms with this one...I still have some work to do to the site, afterwards I will try to address the cultural aspects of this discussion as well.
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Post by Marcus on Feb 14, 2007 9:19:41 GMT -5
I understand, Marcus, but isn't that the point of sites like this one? Isn't this a place where you can educate those who have possibly been misdirected before? Isn't that the very obligation of those who have come to understand this problem? Indeed! Im wasnt trying to say that this forum was misleading people! Ive I was giving people that impression I apoligise. Yes it is our duty to and obligation to educate those who have been misdirected. But I just worry about speaking out about these things incase I offend anyone. A friend of mine came here once and spoke his mind and caused an uproar and on respect for me and this forum he decided it owuld be best that he leave and not cause anymore trouble. He was very blunt in what he said and he definetly should have thought out his words better (even he knew this and told me this). But behind the bluntness he was saying the exact same thing I was saying, he was trying to educate anyone that was perhaps mislead and for that he had to leave.
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Post by Marcus on Feb 14, 2007 9:21:18 GMT -5
Well, I get the feeling I've opened up a whole new can of worms with this one...I still have some work to do to the site, afterwards I will try to address the cultural aspects of this discussion as well. Not a whole can of worms John! ;D But yes this will most likely be a long drawn out discussion! Lets just hope that this time it wont burst out into flames!
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Post by wren on Feb 14, 2007 19:33:02 GMT -5
Indeed! Im wasnt trying to say that this forum was misleading people! Ive I was giving people that impression I apoligise. Yes it is our duty to and obligation to educate those who have been misdirected. But I just worry about speaking out about these things incase I offend anyone. A friend of mine came here once and spoke his mind and caused an uproar and on respect for me and this forum he decided it owuld be best that he leave and not cause anymore trouble. He was very blunt in what he said and he definetly should have thought out his words better (even he knew this and told me this). But behind the bluntness he was saying the exact same thing I was saying, he was trying to educate anyone that was perhaps mislead and for that he had to leave. No, Marcus, your point was very clear. I was only trying to point out that those who do know the history, the language and the culture have an obligation to educate... as is being done right here at PM! As for James, I truly enjoyed his debates and learned a great deal from his discussions with John here.
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 16, 2007 15:24:26 GMT -5
[/b] I just dont see why this would be a reason to find onself becoming offended...Obviously, if you know that what someone is stating is untrue, why not attempt to educate someone that is so misinformed? To me, there is just no reason at all to become offended... Either educate... or walk away... Blessings, ~lala[/quote] I get offended because if a wiccan has any idea about their own path they will know that it is not the same path or culture or way of life that the ancient tribes of europe followed. Therfore when they say it is the same religion they are not being truthful and they know this. They then misinform alot of young people who grow to believe that they are following a similar path to their ancestors. It destroys culture because the origional real culture keeps getting diluted into new age religions that claim that they are the origional culture. [/quote] Well Marcus I wouldn't go so far as to say I find it offensive, but I do stand by what I said about it being an ugly thing. I agree with you and Lala both on these points. Lets bare in mind that I'm talking about those Wiccans who don't give their practice the proper amount of study and inquiry to know that their ways aren't Celtic. Keep in mind that as reconstrutionists we get it drilled into our heads (at least I have) that not only shouldn't we take anyone's word for anything, but it isn't truth until it has withstood the utter scrutiny of inquiry. These Wiccans who are doing this are doing so because they have read a passage in some of Gardner's books that may, or may not have been claiming Wicca is a solely a Celtic practice, which given what Kitty told me on the subject is doubtful. Of course you and I are allowed to have our thoughts on the subject at hand, I agree with Lala that taking actual offense is not the answer. The problem is that sometimes Covens teach it this way...So that its not so much a personal path anymore but group law.
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 16, 2007 16:37:32 GMT -5
Exactly! I feel we are argueing the same point. I myself would never turn around to someone and say that their path is "wrong", i believe that having faith in anything is better than having no faith at all. However just as you say John when they start to claim their practice as something that was actually a practice of the ancient Celts it is then that I am actually offended. [/b] I just dont see why this would be a reason to find onself becoming offended...Obviously, if you know that what someone is stating is untrue, why not attempt to educate someone that is so misinformed? To me, there is just no reason at all to become offended... Either educate... or walk away... Blessings, ~lala[/quote] Well, while I agree Lala, that theres no point in being offended so much, I do see his point as well. By and large it is a cultural system that is being diminished by those who don't want to do their homework. Now, keep in mind I'm not speaking of *every* Wiccan, Kitty for example knows the difference between the two paths, the Wiccans on these boards are pretty well rounded on such things. Which is one reason I agree with you.
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 16, 2007 16:49:05 GMT -5
When my culture is being destroyed, all around me, it is difficult not to become frustrated. I dont think it is a waste of time or energy to try to save that culture. And it certainly does not make me a bitter person.......yes i get frustrated......but when I do glimpse that culture, that the ancients once loved, I am exultant! And I know that I must spend all of my energy trying to increase that glimpse. When individuals dilute the old ways it means that sooner or later the younger generation will never be able to see what their ancestors truly believed in. That imo is a great offence keeping someone from finding their true heritage. I think this is a bit strong, many Wiccans and Witches have a very strong tie to Irish culture. I was addressing a select few.
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