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Post by KittyLane on May 17, 2007 10:19:45 GMT -5
I know alot of Wiccans have strong ties to the Irish culture. But they cannot claim they are following an Ancient celtic religion. There is more to Irish/Gaelic culture than religion. I am just argueing the religious side of things. While I respect those who practice Wicca and feel there is little I can do about them (or any other Pagan offshoot) from appropriating cultural words and practices, it is quiet another thing to try and appropriate a cultural identity, and even worse to try to rewrite history. The same can be said of many other pagan religions and "offshoots". I disagree that wiccans are trying to attach themselves to, "cultural identities". There is continuous debate about wiccans and where it sprang from, I will not go into that debate again. But there are proofs of witchcraft being intricately woven into several cultures around the world. I believe that is where most if not all of the ties are coming from. How people of today apply that and interpret that is up for debate. Because I will again say, how are we to know for sure?
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Finn
Philosopher
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Post by Finn on May 17, 2007 10:53:00 GMT -5
The same can be said of many other pagan religions and "offshoots". I disagree that wiccans are trying to attach themselves to, "cultural identities". There is continuous debate about wiccans and where it sprang from, I will not go into that debate again. But there are proofs of witchcraft being intricately woven into several cultures around the world. I believe that is where most if not all of the ties are coming from. How people of today apply that and interpret that is up for debate. Because I will again say, how are we to know for sure? On the whole, I agree, Traditional Wiccans certainly don't have any pretentions, nor do they attempt to appropriate cultural identities. However, the "Wiccanesque" as individuals quite often do. Witchcraft, i.e. practices to affect the world via magic are indeed embedded in nearly every culture the world has ever known, but they are not (in general) related. They are examples of parallel cultural evolution. I would assert there are no connections between them, but rather we seek to "find" such connections. We want to find them, and hence we do. You ask a very fair question. "How do we know for sure?" But that is where research, good scholarship, and hard work come in. Do we know for "sure" there is no monster in Loch Ness? No. But now, after years of research and tests, we know with a 99.9% certainty. Science isn't about knowing, it is about testing the available data and going with the theories that are best supported. I follow an even simpler mantra, "seeing is believing." When people make outrageous claims, put forth radical theories, and so on the weight is on THEM to prove them. We are under no obligation to accept their notions out of political correctness. They are the ones challenging the lore that has come before them. That is their right. However, the responsibility falls upon them to show us why they are correct or fade into the obscurity they deserve.
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Post by KittyLane on May 17, 2007 11:35:11 GMT -5
The same can be said of many other pagan religions and "offshoots". I disagree that wiccans are trying to attach themselves to, "cultural identities". There is continuous debate about wiccans and where it sprang from, I will not go into that debate again. But there are proofs of witchcraft being intricately woven into several cultures around the world. I believe that is where most if not all of the ties are coming from. How people of today apply that and interpret that is up for debate. Because I will again say, how are we to know for sure? On the whole, I agree, Traditional Wiccans certainly don't have any pretentions, nor do they attempt to appropriate cultural identities. However, the "Wiccanesque" as individuals quite often do. Witchcraft, i.e. practices to affect the world via magic are indeed embedded in nearly every culture the world has ever known, but they are not (in general) related. They are examples of parallel cultural evolution. I would assert there are no connections between them, but rather we seek to "find" such connections. We want to find them, and hence we do. You ask a very fair question. "How do we know for sure?" But that is where research, good scholarship, and hard work come in. Do we know for "sure" there is no monster in Loch Ness? No. But now, after years of research and tests, we know with a 99.9% certainty. Science isn't about knowing, it is about testing the available data and going with the theories that are best supported. I follow an even simpler mantra, "seeing is believing." When people make outrageous claims, put forth radical theories, and so on the weight is on THEM to prove them. We are under no obligation to accept their notions out of political correctness. They are the ones challenging the lore that has come before them. That is their right. However, the responsibility falls upon them to show us why they are correct or fade into the obscurity they deserve.So are you requesting that all religions must prove their genuosity? Because there are numerous under the pagan umbrella and outside it that simply are based upon faith. Faith that what people have told them is true, faith that they do not need to see to believe. Mind you faithis not limited to those of christian religions or otherwise. Mormons for example have faith that god sends prophets to them to guide them even today. If a religion must prove its, "correctness" then nearly all religions would become obsolete.
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Post by blackwolf on May 17, 2007 11:41:16 GMT -5
Ah, yes, here is the sticking point, for some. And I do understand the "doubting Thomas" ideal.
However, this leads, to another, double pronged, sticking point...One: That much has been Oral Teachings, and Tradition, not available to the common masses, and most certainly not written down. and here, also, I must emphasize the words, common masses, for often, this was the Blue Blood tradition, as in " Merlin, teaching Arthur " , in myth...Which was a way of coding inner truth...Inner, and Outer Teachings, and Circles, just as we find today, in many Societies, and groups...Many, are never let within the Inner Circle, thus they do not know, things exist, no matter how hard they look, or how much they want it...
Two...It is because of the very nature of the beast, shall we say...When the secrets, are revealed, the general populace, and researchers, either outright disbelieve, and very often attack, or, demand empirical proof, of which there many times, is none, since it :
1. Was destroyed, when found, by those, in control of goverment, religious organizations, or media
2. Since it was Oral Teaching, there never was, any "empirical evidence"...This is why many, who hold this type of Wisdom, have chosen, to let the masses, remain in their beliefs, and to a large degree, ignorance of these Inner Traditions. Even when researchers, think they have been given all the secrets, that is still only what tribal law, or individual Wisdomkeepers, allow, or choose, to reveal...There have always been, and always will be, Inner Circles, of Initiates, following the "fourth law" of Silence, for this very reason...( Dare, Do, Be, Be Silent ) However, in every age, there are those asked, by Spirit, or by the Inner Circle, to step forward, and do their best...We know, what has happened, to those, who attempt to do so, especially by those, they are attempting to assist...
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Finn
Philosopher
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Post by Finn on May 17, 2007 12:14:39 GMT -5
So are you requesting that all religions must prove their genuosity? Because there are numerous under the pagan umbrella and outside it that simply are based upon faith. Faith that what people have told them is true, faith that they do not need to see to believe. Mind you faithis not limited to those of christian religions or otherwise. Mormons for example have faith that god sends prophets to them to guide them even today. If a religion must prove its, "correctness" then nearly all religions would become obsolete. Not at all. The only requirement I have for Pagan religions based soley on "faith," is that they name themselves thus. If the source of the wisdom is via the ecstatic experience, divine communication, and so on I expect practitioners of that faith to say so in no uncertain terms. I consider such religions just as legitmate as any others. However, that is not the same as endorsing their beliefs, nor do I feel such faiths should "attempt" to pass themselves off as something that can be proven in some other way. If they make that attempt, then the onus shifts to them once again to give evidence to prove such claims.
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Finn
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Post by Finn on May 17, 2007 12:30:30 GMT -5
I will attempt to expand on my previous comments.
Example 1: Moses goes upon the mountain and says God spoke directly to him via a burning bush. He is given laws directly from the divine and sent back down to the people.
You either accept this story on faith or you do not. The source of the laws and the story is the divine (or what Moses claims about the divine). It is perfectly legitmate for people to follow this religion based on faith. It is no more or less legitimate (that we can prove) because "faith" itself is required. However, there are people that will seek to prove the truth of their religion by saying things like "the mountain in the story is a real place," or "we have records that Moses existed," and so on. Those statements have no bearing on the truth of the religion and can in no way prove its veracity. It is an application of fallacy. What is worse, we have groups (and individuals) who claim all sorts of things about secret societies and conspiracies that hide the truth from us. We have no proof they will argue, because of these evil forces. The "lack of evidence" is not proof of a conspiracy. A lack of evidence is simply that, a lack of supporting evidence to a theory.
Example 2: 9 million witches were murdered during the Burning Times. Dorothy Clutterbuck initiated Gardner into the ancient tradition of Wicca which stretches back unbroken through the mists of time. Evidence of the "Old Religion" is found in all the statues and Goddesses of the ancient world.
Here we have a plethora of misinformation, bad science, and wild speculation that the facts do not support. It is a sad reflection on my own field (Anthropology) that Murray gave this fad its start. Gardner was a great fan of Murray, and incorporated many of her theories into his religion. It was, perhaps, understandable for those first taught these things accepted them, but it isn't anymore. Research, scholarship, examination of the evidence, and hard, 1st hand documentation have proven all of this to be nothing more than wish fulfillment. These are things that were stated and purported to be facts. They were not put forth as arguments of faith. As facts, the onus was on those who stated these theories to support them. The opposite happened. They could not be supported. In due course they have been debunked. That is not to say Wicca has been debunked. It remains a perfectly viable, legitimate faith. Many things about Christianity have been debunked too. That doesn't detract from the validity fo the religion either.
My point is that people play with words. If "faith" is the foundation of a religion, then the practitioners must make it plain, not spin information and try to have it both ways. If you put something forward as historical fact or something you say can be proven with say mathematics, then you must PROVE it.
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Post by blackwolf on May 17, 2007 13:42:20 GMT -5
Finn, my "friend"...I need to make this clear, with true consideration, of your viewpoint ( Which, by the way, is no more, or less, valid than anyone else's ); I, for one, will not be going round and round with you, on this issue, of validity...I do respect good re-search...However, that is, what it is, re Search, for those, who have lost knowledge...Some, in Inner Circles, have always retained that knowledge, therefore, do not have to re-search... Whether any, like it, or not...And, many, in re-search circles, once they have found something, circle the wagons, so to speak, to even resist new information, from their own colleagues,let alone, any they consider, outside their circle, or do not have the credentials, they feel are valid...A quote, from an old movie, is brought to mind : " We don't need no stinkin' badges "....
Two, as far as conspiracy theories...No one brought that up here; Do some deep re-search, and you might just find those statements, I made, to be true...I have done my homework, but unlike you, and others, perhaps, "so sorry", I am not a "fanatic", regarding noting, every single thing, I have looked up, or where I found it...It was not, nor will not, be important, to me, to do that; Let that be, with my blessing, your field, and good fortune, in your Re-search...My domain, is, past the acquisition of knowledge, the integration of knowledge, into Wisdom, and the dispersal following; There are traditions, far beyond, most "phase locked" , humans, ( not saying you ) ability, to comprehend... Or those Societies, which have been the guardians, of these traditions, thru the ages... Again, blessings, in your work, but do not belittle others, who have different paths, and have no need, to offer you, or others, empirical proof, to your, or their,complete satisfaction...We would never get our Work done, which, shall I say, is a different " Field" of endeavor...
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Finn
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Post by Finn on May 17, 2007 14:05:21 GMT -5
However, that is, what it is, re Search, for those, who have lost knowledge...Some, in Inner Circles, have always retained that knowledge, therefore, do not have to re-search... That is a bold statement. You are saying that you are part of these Inner Circles that have retained this knowledge. Moreover, prior to now, this knowledge was largely kept hidden. You have, for good reasons no doubt, decided it was time the information is to be revealed. You have put forth theories (or truth) which is radically different from the known lore. All I'm asking, and it is a fair question, is for you to cite your sources or provide evidence to support your statements. You do not need any badges if the evidence supports your conclusions. I'm not resisting anything. I'm asking you to step up and give us the information in straight, clear terms. If you are saying you don't need any "stinkin'" evidence to prove your statements, then we will have to agree to disagree. I "think" you just said you don't think it is important to cite (or know) where everything you looked up is found. We will have to agree to disagree there too. In fact, the rules I read just yesterday when I joined this place indicated that you must give proper credit where credit is due. Ah. You are past the point where learning is necessary? I do appear to lack the ability to comprehend. I suppose that I why I'm asking you to clarify it. I've been a Seeker for a long time, and I expect I'll still be one when I die. I do not forsee ever being "past the acquisition of knowledge." This is true. There is no requirement for you (or any group or individual) to offer us proof, but you should not expect us to accept anything you say lacking it. Call it a healthy skepticisim. I am not demeaning you or your path. I am asking you to support the statements you, yourself have made. It is not an insult to ask, nor expect such things.
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Post by Senbecc on May 17, 2007 15:20:32 GMT -5
Ah, yes, here is the sticking point, for some. And I do understand the "doubting Thomas" ideal. However, this leads, to another, double pronged, sticking point...One: That much has been Oral Teachings, and Tradition, not available to the common masses, and most certainly not written down. and here, also, I must emphasize the words, common masses, for often, this was the Blue Blood tradition, as in " Merlin, teaching Arthur " , in myth...Which was a way of coding inner truth...Inner, and Outer Teachings, and Circles, just as we find today, in many Societies, and groups...Many, are never let within the Inner Circle, thus they do not know, things exist, no matter how hard they look, or how much they want it... Two...It is because of the very nature of the beast, shall we say...When the secrets, are revealed, the general populace, and researchers, either outright disbelieve, and very often attack, or, demand empirical proof, of which there many times, is none, since it : 1. Was destroyed, when found, by those, in control of goverment, religious organizations, or media 2. Since it was Oral Teaching, there never was, any "empirical evidence"...This is why many, who hold this type of Wisdom, have chosen, to let the masses, remain in their beliefs, and to a large degree, ignorance of these Inner Traditions. Even when researchers, think they have been given all the secrets, that is still only what tribal law, or individual Wisdomkeepers, allow, or choose, to reveal...There have always been, and always will be, Inner Circles, of Initiates, following the "fourth law" of Silence, for this very reason...( Dare, Do, Be, Be Silent ) However, in every age, there are those asked, by Spirit, or by the Inner Circle, to step forward, and do their best...We know, what has happened, to those, who attempt to do so, especially by those, they are attempting to assist... Blackwolf, I consider myself to be your friend so I hope you won't take this harshly. I agree with you 100% in that evidence and such can and often has been destroyed by ignorant minds through out history. Archaeological, literary, paleontology to name a few subjects which have lost precious evidence through war, ignorance and other such atrocities. The only problem I have is that when such knowledge is brought back into public view it fits right back into place as given by the other sources which would support it. I won't say you're wrong, I just think you need to match the sources.
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Post by blackwolf on May 17, 2007 16:32:31 GMT -5
This is my final post on this matter, then, as far as I am concerned, it is closed, and anyone else can say all they want...Nothing against you, my friend ( truly) Senbecc...However...
1.I did not, in any way state evidence, is not needed, for understanding...I, however, am one, who approaches things, from a totally different point of view...Someone says something is true, I begin with that viewpoint, and if, and only if, I care to dispute it, do I look deeper, into it in order, to discern truth, and eventually, "Higher Truth", within that claim, or paradigm... I do not spend my time, arguing these points, or I would never have been able, to get the work done, which I have...Let alone, helped people, I have helped, whether that is believed, or not...
2.Information revealed, and the timing ? Yes, this is the end of a vast cycle, in the hidden esoteric / occult tradition, and the Mayans, were but one, to document this...It has also been found elsewhere...Look for yourselves, if you like hard work, then you will find it...And, in the words, of a Native Elder, to me, ( and no, I will not betray his trust, and reveal his name, no matter what you think ) " You're the one, this time round ; We don't envy you. "
3.Evidence, again, and sources; I have never posted anything, quoted from another source, I did not already know from the Code, previously...And, if I did, I would, and will, give credit. Just as, the information, from the Mayan tradition, came from when they were called the Runa, which is one of the many names for our language...Meaning, to them, The People...
4. I never said I was past learning...You have always twisted my words, Finn, and I am not going to allow you to hide under as veneer of politeness, when the first time, you have ever called me Sir, and did not tell me I needed therapy, or was crazy, or on drugs, is on this board. I said, I was past the acquisition of knowledge...Though it says on the board, I am a seeker, my days of seeking, are over... Knowledge arrived, by my hard work, patience ( which I have reached my limit here ),and perserverance...and now I am continually unfolding that knowledge, into internal wisdom, which I then share, with those, who are truly ready; As I have told you, our Tradition, doth not " Throw Pearls, Before Swine"... Let's see...Bible, I believe...Forgive me, if I am wrong...
5. I shall not go into the 5th point further, other than to say, yes Finn, you have demeaned me, many times, in the past communications, with you, and no one knows, how hard I have tried...
Now, Senbecc, yes, and when, and if, I get the help to get the Rune sheets up, I will be happy, to do so...Until then, and even then, for I am not going to debate, and quibble every little thing, I say, as I am unfolding the code, I am done, arguing, these things...My preference, would be a closed thread, in the Obri-Runic Grimoire, until I felt, I had enough in there, to back up, what I am saying...As I told Finn before, I could make a physical presentation, in apprx. 3 days, or 24hrs...yet, as a one fingered typist, and with my life, and other commitments, even with sheet scanning, other evidence, especially, the number formulas, which are the most important part of the Code, ( whether some like that, believe it, or not ) , could take me six months...We could put a disclaimer, which stated, it was in process of being " Documented", or "proven", in the meantime...Otherwise, with continual harrasment, and yes, it is that, Sir, (not you, Senbecc ), I will never get it done, and be able to share it, or unfold it, to your possible satisfaction...Does everyone hear me, trying my best here ? Anyone want to take some steps back, please... Nobody is helping me get the Rune sheets up...And don't even offer, Finn...
Hey, Der Trommler, want to come on over, and throw some Dragon Poo ?
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Post by wrengetsin on May 17, 2007 20:27:48 GMT -5
On the whole, I agree, Traditional Wiccans certainly don't have any pretentions, nor do they attempt to appropriate cultural identities. However, the "Wiccanesque" as individuals quite often do. Witchcraft, i.e. practices to affect the world via magic are indeed embedded in nearly every culture the world has ever known, but they are not (in general) related. They are examples of parallel cultural evolution. I would assert there are no connections between them, but rather we seek to "find" such connections. We want to find them, and hence we do. You ask a very fair question. "How do we know for sure?" But that is where research, good scholarship, and hard work come in. Do we know for "sure" there is no monster in Loch Ness? No. But now, after years of research and tests, we know with a 99.9% certainty. Science isn't about knowing, it is about testing the available data and going with the theories that are best supported. I follow an even simpler mantra, "seeing is believing." When people make outrageous claims, put forth radical theories, and so on the weight is on THEM to prove them. We are under no obligation to accept their notions out of political correctness. They are the ones challenging the lore that has come before them. That is their right. However, the responsibility falls upon them to show us why they are correct or fade into the obscurity they deserve.So are you requesting that all religions must prove their genuosity? Because there are numerous under the pagan umbrella and outside it that simply are based upon faith. Faith that what people have told them is true, faith that they do not need to see to believe. Mind you faithis not limited to those of christian religions or otherwise. Mormons for example have faith that god sends prophets to them to guide them even today. If a religion must prove its, "correctness" then nearly all religions would become obsolete. Hello, all! My proboards demons must be off doing someone else in at the moment. Hello, Finn and Blackwolf, a pleasure to see active debate and discourse here! I wish I could post more to discuss with you both. It's hit or miss for me these days here, unfortunately. Kitty, I would say that there is faith and there is hiding from the truth. Yes, witchcraft in various forms has existed a very long time... probably as long as man has walked the Earth. Wicca has not. It is not ancient. Why does it need to be? What is wrong with it being a modern interpretation of witchcraft? Why do so many feel that somehow diminishes it? Why do false claims of being ancient make it feel more authentic...A duck is a duck and should not be and cannot be a swan. Blackwolf, the requests for research and citation are an attempt to help everyone here understand your claims. Not all who question are challenging your veracity. Rather, they look to help educate all to your claims. You must be aware that many make claims that are not true, in order to mislead the innocent and naive or to simply puff up their own egos. That does not mean there is no way to know beyond books. Only that some here would like to touch and examine that which you are claiming as truth. Finn, what of morphic resonance? There is knowing things without learning them from first hand experience. Has this never happened to you? Have you never known something you could not have known, but through genetic or ancestral memory or past life experience? Yes, by all means, such things can sometimes be proven through verifiable research. But, sometimes, they cannot. That does not make them less true. And, just for the sake of scholarship and good grammar... its genuineness or better yet authenticity, not genuosity ('cause that just ain't a word)...
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Finn
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Post by Finn on May 17, 2007 21:00:21 GMT -5
Finn, what of morphic resonance? There is knowing things without learning them from first hand experience. Has this never happened to you? Have you never known something you could not have known, but through genetic or ancestral memory or past life experience? Yes, by all means, such things can sometimes be proven through verifiable research. But, sometimes, they cannot. That does not make them less true. I've never stated that I don't believe in such things (or that I haven't experienced some of them). I have merely stated that if someone is drawing their knowledge and wisdom from such sources that they should be honest about it. It is dishonest to claim such knowledge comes from other sources so they will seem more legitmate in certain circles. I consider divine communion, the ecstatic experience, and more indirect communication with otherworldly entities perfectly legitimate. I am a member of a faith which has many such practices. If/when I speak of such things or the knowledge I garnered in that manner, I will always cite it thus, rather than try to masquerade it as historic fact, science, or secret knowledge passed down through the ages.
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Post by blackwolf on May 17, 2007 21:05:15 GMT -5
"wrengetsin"...Now, I will reply to that post, with joy! Wonderful, to "see"you, my friend...I do so wish we could play together...I so much enjoyed your expertise, with the power of the word...perhaps one day, things shall be different...Yes, my friend, you are correct, and I have no problem, with offering that which I can, which is the result of much loving labor, over many years...It is just continual attack, not only here, when one is trying to offer answers to questions in academia, and the esoteric/occult fields...And there is a vast difference between assumptions, and accusations of fraud, and lies, and a loving attitude, saying, how can we help you show us, what you know ...Doesn't give one a chance to breath, or get the work done, let alone, enjoy my day....It's been a rough week here...as far as modern Wicca, I agree, and always have, it is a piecemeal tradition; I am positing, there was one tradition, long ago, called Wiecka, and the Crreayafth...very different, in a number of ways, and we knew things, scientists are just beginning to catch up on. I look forward, to being given the assistance, support, and time to do a tremendous task. If what I am saying is true, it changes everything...Is that not worth people's support, patience, and whatever help they can offer?
By the way,very,very, good point, about "morphic resonance" , because that is exactly part of this whole thing...The underlying pattern... Thank you, for a break, in the flow/blockage, and a kind thought, and bringing more to "stone soup"...I look forward to your next visit...
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Post by wrengetsin2 on May 17, 2007 21:05:51 GMT -5
I've never stated that I don't believe in such things (or that I haven't experienced some of them). I have merely stated that if someone is drawing their knowledge and wisdom from such sources that they should be honest about it. It is dishonest to claim such knowledge comes from other sources so they will seem more legitmate in certain circles. I consider divine communion, the ecstatic experience, and more indirect communication with otherworldly entities perfectly legitimate. I am a member of a faith which has many such practices. If/when I speak of such things or the knowledge I garnered in that manner, I will always cite it thus, rather than try to masquerade it as historic fact, science, or secret knowledge passed down through the ages. You did state that and I apologize if I implied otherwise. I was merely trying to open up that particular line of thought, along with the verifiable sources discussion. And, yes, it should be clearly stated as such. I agree wholeheartedly with you on that.
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Post by wrengetsin3 on May 17, 2007 21:13:24 GMT -5
Now, I will reply to that post, with joy! Wonderful, to "see"you, my friend...I do so wish we could play together...I so much enjoyed your expertise, with the power of the word...perhaps one day, things shall be different...Yes, my friend, you are correct, and I have no problem, with offering that which I can, which is the result of much loving labor, over many years...It is just continual attack, not only here, when one is trying to offer answers to questions in academia, and the esoteric/occult fields...Doesn't give one a chance to breath, or get the work done, let alone, enjoy my day....It's been a rough week here...as far as modern Wicca, I agree, and always have, it is a piecemeal tradition; I am positing, there was one tradition, long ago, called Wiecka, and the Crreayafth...very different, in a number of ways, and we knew things, scientists are just beginning to catch up on. I look forward, to being given the assistance, support, and time to do a tremendous task. If what I am saying is true, it changes everything...Is that not worth people's support, patience, and whatever help they can offer? By the way,very,very, good point, about "morphic resonance" , because that is exactly part of this whole thing...The underlying pattern... Thank you, for a break, in the flow/blockage, and a kind thought, and bringing more to "stone soup"...I look forward to your next visit... I happen to think that science will be proving that which we all 'know' in the near future. Another witch who has visited here has posited that magic has a frequency that is measureable and will someday be, just as colors and sound are now. After all, much of what we can prove now was unknowable in the not so distant past. Question, questions and more questions... this is what drives us to learn and study and open our eyes. See the challenges of others as a way to hone what you know and a big pointed poking stick to force you to question it all again. That is a good thing, not a bad one. And, while I have faith in some things, it is not enough to only have faith. Blind faith is naive and the stuff of those who would deceive us. I am a student of the world, first and foremost, and want to know everything. There will be no stone left unturned in my world. And, I love stone soup. I'll be happy to add to the pot!
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