briar~rose
Seeker
I'm Queenie Lala's personal Jester.
Posts: 8
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Post by briar~rose on May 27, 2007 18:13:23 GMT -5
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 27, 2007 18:20:17 GMT -5
I think that it's a problem with misunderstanding each other.. Believing in popular misconceptions... Not understanding each sides beliefs... The inability to look past someone's faith...
I could care less about someone's chosen path or belief system..
What would make me happy is that everyone found something that they could believe in, and everyone else be less judgmental, and supportive that their friends, neighbors, co-workers found a path that speaks to them.....
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Post by tahlia on May 27, 2007 18:27:01 GMT -5
Well 2 reasons pop to mind right off. 1. Christians believe that any other "gods" are Satan in disguise. Therefore those "gods" and their followers are evil and the enemy. 2. Christians proselytize and that's just plain irritating. If i wanna be "saved" can't I just send them an email and let them know?
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Post by Senbecc on May 27, 2007 18:54:02 GMT -5
It was funny, the other day (I think you saw it too) where a Christian hid their identity so as to discuss Paganism (to use the term as an umbrella of sorts) as a Pagan. When it got out that they were Christian...Well. It wasn't pretty, could have been worse, but wasn't pretty either. I can't say I frequent many of the Christian boards myself, but I have seen Pagans go on them just to throw a huff, and oh yes, to my mind some of those Christians can be every bit as irritating as some of the Pagans. To my mind it becomes about finding truths and similarities which both sides of the spectrum can agree on. For example to me "God" is the very force of creation which flows through all things. It is an ever evolving ever expanding quest for knowledge and wisdom. *A* god...That's a bit more difficult to explain...To a Celt, the gods are more in an abstract nature. Have you ever found a place in nature where you just "belong"? This in my experience could be as small as a hollow tree, or as large as a river, or meadow. A place where you just felt..."Right" You know it like the back of your hand and you truly felt with all your heart it knew you too? To a Celt, This would be where the gods interconnect, this is how one finds "the Gods". This IMHO, isn't to far off the mark from most basic Christian philosophies. God is the creator of all things. The force that splits the seed, the creator of the cosmos, as is what a Druid would call "Deity". I think one might find that the Angels and demons of Christianity are not TO terribly off the mark from the Tuatha de Danann and the Fomorii of Irish legend. Angels too can be connected to the land and be seen as examples of the creative flow within all things. With in any system of beliefs there is to be found examples of the truth. *Some* Christians as well as Pagans see these examples to be set in "stone". Stone is only one of at least nine ways of seeing such, and their qualities. There are many more alive and moving ways of seeing them...Personal philosophy is definitely one of these ways. Do you think philosophy would be a way of the mind, or a way of the spirit? (P.S. Lala likes me better )
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briar~rose
Seeker
I'm Queenie Lala's personal Jester.
Posts: 8
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Post by briar~rose on May 27, 2007 19:26:05 GMT -5
See that's what confuses me the most. "We" complaine of the Christians always following and attacking us trying to "save our souls" and what-not. And how they "sneak" into our boards and groups or whatever and cause a riot. But we fail to or just ignore the fact that we sort of to the same thing. We begged, pleaded, griped and raved to be accepted and yet we go and get all indignent about them being curious. My point is most Christians can't just go pick up <b>one<b> book and find out everything about Being of the Craft. But we can go pick up the Bible and learn everything that they believe in. So it's really no wonder they're confused. But at the same time, I know people don't want to have to constently sit and explain why they believe the way they do to people who are only interested in finding some "flaw" in their beliefs. I don't guess this question will have an answer that both sides can agree on other than "They just don't understand". (P.S. I'm LaLa's official Jester, so it's my job to make her laugh )
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on May 27, 2007 20:04:53 GMT -5
There are a couple of reasons. A few people have touched on them, but I don't think anyone has clearly spelled it all out. 1. Christian theology believes that followers of all other faiths are either knowingly or unknowingly serving their devil. It is an article of their faith. I understand this. I accept this. It doesn't mean we can't be friends with Christians as individuals or as people, but it does mean that it is foolish for us to ever expect be accepted by their faith. In effect, insisting that they accept us is the same telling them their beliefs are wrong. We don't like it when people do it to us. I don't know why we should do it to them. 2. We have too many wannabe Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens. What do I mean by that? They aren't with us because they give a rat's ass about our beliefs. They are just pissed off at Christianity or some group of Christians. We are their "rebel" phase. They are in it for the Christian bashing. Somebody told them "no" once and they want to give it back in spades. These militant, angry types are more vocal than the rest and set the stage as a battleground. 3. There are Pagan faiths that are just as exclusive as Christianity. They also believe that Christians are a problem, as are the majority of other faiths in general.
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Post by Marcus on May 28, 2007 6:17:40 GMT -5
I have nothing against those who have belief in a christian faith....its better to have faith in something than no faith at all. However its difficult for one to just forget that for hundreds of years the catholic church was responible for murdering many innocent people just because their beliefs were different from their own. Saying "why cant we just forget our past differences" would be the same as telling someone "why cant we just forget what the nazis did?" Sometimes we cant forget those sort of things so that it is prevented from happening again in the future.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on May 28, 2007 7:49:34 GMT -5
However its difficult for one to just forget that for hundreds of years the catholic church was responible for murdering many innocent people just because their beliefs were different from their own. Here is one of those places we differ in opinion. I don't think this has anything to do with being Christian (or Catholic) and everything to do with being human. Human history, the whole of it, is a long litany of such tragedy. The only reason Christian atrocities resonate today is because they are the faith in charge now, and most recently. I often must remind people that Christians, historically, are good at killing other Christians, not Pagans. It was PAGAN Rome that wrought genocide in Gaul. It was PAGAN Rome which brought the ancient world to heel and set things up for eventual conversion. It was PAGAN Rome that used to strangle the defeated leaders (taken in war) on the steps of their ancient temples for all to see. I would argue that being "Christian" is not the cause of crimes, but the excuse utilized to justify them. They would have happened either way. Heh. Or sometimes, refusing to let go of such things simply sets the stage for atrocities in reverse. I simply cannot equate a small group of people (like the Nazis) with an entire faith and all its denominations. I don't even think it is a fair comparison. That is the same as when non-Pagans equate us all to the Christian devil. Let me be blunt, I don't feel any guilt over what happened to the Native Americans in the past. I wasn't there killing them. I think it is a tragedy and I like to think I would have fought against it as many people did. The point is that I am responsible for my own actions. I do not hold Christians today (all of them) responsible for the atrocities wrought by other people. I don't even hold the whole group responsible for the mad ravings of a small minority of their faith. I don't think it is fair, ethical, or honest to do so. We, as Wiccans, Pagans, and Heathens wished to be judged on our own merits but refuse to give others the same consideration. Most people under the Pagan Umbrella use the world "Christian" like a racial epithet. Do I think we could easily end up venting out own atrocities one day? Yes.
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Post by Senbecc on May 28, 2007 8:19:22 GMT -5
No, I'll say I disagree with you here Marcus. Down through the centuries just about every culture has warred against the other, the Christians certainly aren't the only ones who are guilty. To my mind it was nothing but one culture needing to rule and take over another...Christianity was just an excuse. But no matter how history remembers them Marcus they keep happening. You can crush an army of the country you've invaded, but they're not truly defeated until the people think you're right in having done so. Spirit runs deep, and the need of one culture to reign over another sometimes does too, it is man's need to control another, it is human nature, as I said "religion" is just an excuse....Even Hitler thought he was doing what was right.
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Post by nevyn on May 28, 2007 9:17:40 GMT -5
My point is most Christians can't just go pick up <b>one<b> book and find out everything about Being of the Craft. But we can go pick up the Bible and learn everything that they believe in. We can go pick up the Bible and learn what their beliefs are based on, not what they believe in. The bible is a book that was written by man (yes, they say that God "dictated" the information, but still MAN interpreted said dictation) and each different sect of Christianity takes what was written and uses it to support their own agenda. A Catholic takes a different stance on what the bible says than a Baptist or a Protestant. Some Christians believe that every single word in the bible is truth and law and cannot be subject to interpretation (ie, Creationalists, the world was created as is in 7 days) while others (Catholics ususally ) give credit to the fact that it was written by man and CAN be interpreted.
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Post by nevyn on May 28, 2007 9:18:57 GMT -5
and why the debate? because we are human and human beings as a whole argue! Just give a topic and we'll debate it!
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briar~rose
Seeker
I'm Queenie Lala's personal Jester.
Posts: 8
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Post by briar~rose on May 28, 2007 18:42:45 GMT -5
Why the debate?? My answer is simple because I'm HUMAN and curious. Plus I was on a Pagan based group when a christian came on and "pretended" to be pagan just to ask some ...... well I'll say wierd questions so as not to be rude,.... Anyway, He asked some questions saying he was new to witchcraft. Asking things like what's my favorite way to sacrifice(sp) my cats. Then it broke out into a full out war. I was present at another on at Book of Spells where people on the thread started attacking a christian who had wondered on the thread because he to was curious. This incident to broke out into full out war but it wasn't Christian against "us" it was "Us" against "us".
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briar~rose
Seeker
I'm Queenie Lala's personal Jester.
Posts: 8
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Post by briar~rose on May 28, 2007 18:44:35 GMT -5
Why the debate?? My answer is simple because I'm HUMAN and curious. Plus I was on a Pagan based group when a christian came on and "pretended" to be pagan just to ask some ...... well I'll say wierd questions so as not to be rude,.... Anyway, He asked some questions saying he was new to witchcraft. Asking things like what's my favorite way to sacrifice(sp) my cats. Then it broke out into a full out war, over ONE person. I was present at another on at Book of Spells where people on the thread started attacking a christian who had come on the thread because he too was curious. This incident also broke out into full out war but it wasn't Christian against "us" it was "Us" against "us".
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Post by nevyn on May 28, 2007 19:50:28 GMT -5
oh, no. i wasn't saying why were you asking, I was trying to be humorous in my opinion that people will alway debate.
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Post by KittyLane on May 29, 2007 9:32:40 GMT -5
Well when christians are trying to help us find the righteous path, and save us from, "the devil" then its kinda hard to get along. It is in the essence of a christian to do so. And that is great for them. Just not so much for the pagans. Because we will always be seen as wrong in their eyes.
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