Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
|
Post by Finn on May 29, 2007 10:30:07 GMT -5
Well when christians are trying to help us find the righteous path, and save us from, "the devil" then its kinda hard to get along. It is in the essence of a christian to do so. And that is great for them. Just not so much for the pagans. Because we will always be seen as wrong in their eyes. Exactly. So if we know we will always be "wrong" in their eyes, what possible benefit is there for arguing with them? It takes two to tango. All we do by showing up for the argument is make their boogeyman myth a reality. It empowers them. They need someone to represent the "Adversary." Ignore them. Stay off their radar. Let them play with themselves. We don't need their acceptance, understanding, or even their ire.
|
|
|
Post by KittyLane on May 29, 2007 14:14:58 GMT -5
Well when christians are trying to help us find the righteous path, and save us from, "the devil" then its kinda hard to get along. It is in the essence of a christian to do so. And that is great for them. Just not so much for the pagans. Because we will always be seen as wrong in their eyes. Exactly. So if we know we will always be "wrong" in their eyes, what possible benefit is there for arguing with them? It takes two to tango. All we do by showing up for the argument is make their boogeyman myth a reality. It empowers them. They need someone to represent the "Adversary." Ignore them. Stay off their radar. Let them play with themselves. We don't need their acceptance, understanding, or even their ire. I do try to stay off their radar, but being here in the "bible belt" they come to me. For instance: after coming home from a appointment, I have a church postcard stuck in my door. I am so happy I missed that visit!
|
|
briar~rose
Seeker
I'm Queenie Lala's personal Jester.
Posts: 8
|
Post by briar~rose on May 29, 2007 17:48:28 GMT -5
oh, no. i wasn't saying why were you asking, I was trying to be humorous in my opinion that people will alway debate. I know.... I was just afraid I didn't get my question out clearly enough......
|
|
briar~rose
Seeker
I'm Queenie Lala's personal Jester.
Posts: 8
|
Post by briar~rose on May 29, 2007 17:52:08 GMT -5
Exactly. So if we know we will always be "wrong" in their eyes, what possible benefit is there for arguing with them? It takes two to tango. All we do by showing up for the argument is make their boogeyman myth a reality. It empowers them. They need someone to represent the "Adversary." Ignore them. Stay off their radar. Let them play with themselves. We don't need their acceptance, understanding, or even their ire. I do try to stay off their radar, but being here in the "bible belt" they come to me. For instance: after coming home from a appointment, I have a church postcard stuck in my door. I am so happy I missed that visit! I know what you mean..... One day I came home from the movies and found found bibles and eight different info cards on the "good things" about being christian. *is about how I felt*
|
|
|
Post by KittyLane on May 29, 2007 22:05:12 GMT -5
I do try to stay off their radar, but being here in the "bible belt" they come to me. For instance: after coming home from a appointment, I have a church postcard stuck in my door. I am so happy I missed that visit! I know what you mean..... One day I came home from the movies and found found bibles and eight different info cards on the "good things" about being christian. *is about how I felt* I try not to be mean when they come to my door. I am a stay at home mom so I get to 'enjoy' their visits. I get a sermon, and a invitation to the local churches. I just smile, and tell them I am very busy with my children. I kinda want to do this though... ;D ;D ;D Off my porch puuuhlease!
|
|
Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
|
Post by Finn on May 30, 2007 12:07:04 GMT -5
I don't take Christian coupons, flyers, or brochures any more ill than I do any of the other junk mail I get in my mailbox, under my windshield wiper, or at my door. It just gets filed with all the rest, in the nearest convenient trash receptacle. I also don't take ill to the door-to-door or street corner types who try to save my soul. I'm certainly not going to be offended by their attempts to honor their faith. They are called upon to "bear witness" and the ones that do are merely following their beliefs in the same way Wiccans, Pagans, and Heathens follow their own. Is it annoying? No more so than anything else we don't want to deal with. It is just the cost of doing business when you live in a country where better than 90% of the population identify themselves as Christians. If it is any consolation to those of you who do find it unbearable, most of their "bearing witness" is done to other Christians. They don't aim for the non-Christians. They aim at everyone.
|
|
|
Post by tahlia on May 30, 2007 23:06:44 GMT -5
I don't take Christian coupons, flyers, or brochures any more ill than I do any of the other junk mail I get in my mailbox, under my windshield wiper, or at my door. It just gets filed with all the rest, in the nearest convenient trash receptacle. I also don't take ill to the door-to-door or street corner types who try to save my soul. I'm certainly not going to be offended by their attempts to honor their faith. They are called upon to "bear witness" and the ones that do are merely following their beliefs in the same way Wiccans, Pagans, and Heathens follow their own. Is it annoying? No more so than anything else we don't want to deal with. It is just the cost of doing business when you live in a country where better than 90% of the population identify themselves as Christians. If it is any consolation to those of you who do find it unbearable, most of their "bearing witness" is done to other Christians. They don't aim for the non-Christians. They aim at everyone. I have to say that most of the time I do find them knocking on my door to be more annoying than say... the guy who sells Kirby's or something. I imagine that's because my beliefs are much more personal and important to me than my vacuum cleaner. I've had some wonderful conversations with the mormons though. Jehovah's Witnesses I find to be much more bothersome. In my area pagan isn't so uncommon though and we don't get as much christian literature as some areas do. I had never even heard of the Chick tracts until about a year ago. I can certainly understand how those things could seriously upset people....especially when they are handed out to children. But all in all as long as people are willing to be reasonable and talk rather than preach I have no problems. It has never reached an "unbearable" level. (and if you think the christians are persistant.... try talking to a Marine recruiter. lol)
|
|
Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
|
Post by Finn on May 31, 2007 7:03:45 GMT -5
I have to say that most of the time I do find them knocking on my door to be more annoying than say... the guy who sells Kirby's or something. I imagine that's because my beliefs are much more personal and important to me than my vacuum cleaner. My question would be, "why?" Are you saying that my beliefs are less personal and important to me than yours because I don't take offense at door-to-door Christian propaganda? How so? I would argue that the strength of your beliefs should make them even less annoying than the average vacuum salesman because you are in no danger of writing them a check. Perhaps it's because I was not born a Christian or raised a Christian that I don't get all this angst people have in dealing with that faith. It almost seems like the anger and/or fear one experiences with an ex-girlfriend. I tend to suspect that people who get all annoyed or militant about Christians and Christianity are still harboring that old flame that will not die. I'm not saying this is you, so please don't take offense. I'm just musing out loud about all the so-called prodigal sons and daughters I've seen come and go under the Pagan Umbrella. The most militant anti-Christian types always come from Christianity and then proceed to behave the same way they did under that faith, except with a different target for their venom. More humerous still, is the rather large number of them that go back to Christianity someday (hence my calling them "prodigal sons and daughters"). Free speech is a harsh mistress. That means that people can say and print all sorts of things we may not like, and hand them out to children. By in large, I care so little about these people that they are invisible to me, like any other fixture in the background. Consider them white noise. Heh. So as long as you like what they have to say they are "talking" and when you don't they are "preaching?" I'm sure you see the irony in your statement? There was once a girl I worked with who had a very humerous slant on things. She asked me, "Do you know the difference between flirting and sexual harrassment?" I said I didn't. She said, "The only difference is whether or not the girl finds you cute or not." Not to make like of a serious issue (it wasn't my joke), but we must ever beware hypocrisy. Free speech is not the same as "freedom from speech." In fact, the two concepts are mutually exclusive. There is no such thing as just "talking." Everything anyone says or does is based on a bias.
|
|
|
Post by tahlia on May 31, 2007 12:35:10 GMT -5
My question would be, "why?" Are you saying that my beliefs are less personal and important to me than yours because I don't take offense at door-to-door Christian propaganda? How so? I would argue that the strength of your beliefs should make them even less annoying than the average vacuum salesman because you are in no danger of writing them a check. Perhaps it's because I was not born a Christian or raised a Christian that I don't get all this angst people have in dealing with that faith. It almost seems like the anger and/or fear one experiences with an ex-girlfriend. I tend to suspect that people who get all annoyed or militant about Christians and Christianity are still harboring that old flame that will not die. I'm not saying this is you, so please don't take offense. I'm just musing out loud about all the so-called prodigal sons and daughters I've seen come and go under the Pagan Umbrella. The most militant anti-Christian types always come from Christianity and then proceed to behave the same way they did under that faith, except with a different target for their venom. More humerous still, is the rather large number of them that go back to Christianity someday (hence my calling them "prodigal sons and daughters"). Free speech is a harsh mistress. That means that people can say and print all sorts of things we may not like, and hand them out to children. By in large, I care so little about these people that they are invisible to me, like any other fixture in the background. Consider them white noise. Heh. So as long as you like what they have to say they are "talking" and when you don't they are "preaching?" I'm sure you see the irony in your statement? There was once a girl I worked with who had a very humerous slant on things. She asked me, "Do you know the difference between flirting and sexual harrassment?" I said I didn't. She said, "The only difference is whether or not the girl finds you cute or not." Not to make like of a serious issue (it wasn't my joke), but we must ever beware hypocrisy. Free speech is not the same as "freedom from speech." In fact, the two concepts are mutually exclusive. There is no such thing as just "talking." Everything anyone says or does is based on a bias. I wasn't raised christian either. I wasn't saying that my beliefs are more anything. Just that they are mine and important to me. If the christian literature etc. doesn't ever bother you than if anything I'm saying you are probably a better and more tolerant person than me. As for "talking" vs. "preaching" I make a distinction there because I would see "talking" in the sense of conversation, mutual dialog, listening as well as speaking. "Preaching" to me is simply delivering a sermon. If they are willing to listen and possibly even see another viewpoint it's not really preaching. I don't think it has anything to do with how I feel about what they are saying. It's about the manner and situation it is said in.
|
|
|
Post by Senbecc on May 31, 2007 12:51:23 GMT -5
I don't take Christian coupons, flyers, or brochures any more ill than I do any of the other junk mail I get in my mailbox, under my windshield wiper, or at my door. It just gets filed with all the rest, in the nearest convenient trash receptacle. I also don't take ill to the door-to-door or street corner types who try to save my soul. I'm certainly not going to be offended by their attempts to honor their faith. They are called upon to "bear witness" and the ones that do are merely following their beliefs in the same way Wiccans, Pagans, and Heathens follow their own. Is it annoying? No more so than anything else we don't want to deal with. It is just the cost of doing business when you live in a country where better than 90% of the population identify themselves as Christians. If it is any consolation to those of you who do find it unbearable, most of their "bearing witness" is done to other Christians. They don't aim for the non-Christians. They aim at everyone. When I was in Arkansas the Jehovah's Witnesses found a very effective way to catch my attention. I would tell them that I wasn't interested in their stuff, and pretty soon they had this girl, and I mean she was absolutely gorgeous. Needless to say I was far more interested in their faith...Even invited them in when they had her with them. Chin hit the floor so hard I almost got talked into going to church. I have some good stories about Christians coming to my door. They can be fun Sometimes I think most of them just lack the proper motivation.
|
|
|
Post by Senbecc on May 31, 2007 12:56:32 GMT -5
"Chick tracts?"
|
|
|
Post by tahlia on May 31, 2007 13:04:19 GMT -5
www.chick.com/default.aspGo read. They are funny. They aren't meant to be....but they are. I wouldn't want this nonsense handed out to my children with their Halloween candy though.
|
|
|
Post by Senbecc on May 31, 2007 13:23:34 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Senbecc on May 31, 2007 13:31:26 GMT -5
|
|
Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
|
Post by Finn on May 31, 2007 13:43:49 GMT -5
I wasn't raised christian either. I wasn't saying that my beliefs are more anything. Just that they are mine and important to me. If the christian literature etc. doesn't ever bother you than if anything I'm saying you are probably a better and more tolerant person than me. I doubt it. I'm no more "tolerant" than anyone else. However, my irritation is reserved for those people who actually reflect badly on me. That is why I tend to be "hard" on my peers under the Pagan Umbrella and more or less ignore those who aren't. I could care less what Christians say, do, or think. I just don't think their opinion of my beliefs matters, so how can I get upset about it? Again, I'd say what you are describing is all well and good, but utterly worthless because it is subjective. Human beings always see disagreement as "preaching." They assume someone who comes to a different conclusion just isn't listening. That is sometimes true, but I have found more often than not, that people who disagree with you sometimes are listening, they do understand your arguments, they just have come to a different conclusion. This comes up all the time with Christian-Bashing. So many of my peers lament, "If only they would listen to the fact we don't worship their devil. We tell them time and time again and they keep repeating that lie!" Therein lies the problem. The Christians are listening to us. They just disagree. Their way of seeing the universe states we do worship their devil, although without our own knowledge. It is we, Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens, that do not listen. We continue to shout back at them and try to explain we don't worship the devil. If we were listening we would understand why it is useless to argue because their worldview is mutually exclusive from our own.
|
|