Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 3, 2007 1:34:34 GMT -5
I don't feel especially "at war" with Christians, but I do feel disgruntled with the fact that we are inundated day in and day out with their slant on everything, and when the media talks about religion it's almost always from the Christian perspective. That is because better than 90% of this country identifies themselves as Christians. The media plays to its audience. If Wiccans, Pagans, and Heathens were the majority, the roles would reverse. I don't think there is any conspiracy or plot going on here. Like it or not, we do live in a nation dominated by the Christians. It makes perfect sense that their ideas, notions, and language will be part of the zeitgeist. Define "lots" please? Because as a percentage of the military, there are not lots of Wiccans, Pagans and/or Heathens. For that matter, why do you expect there to be a reference to us? The media isn't going to cover something unless it sells. That means if we are mentioned it will only be when it is sensational. In that case, we are better off not making the news. BINGO! They are indeed playing to the "mainstream" of America. Ok. What exactly do you find offensive about that? The media is not the government. They are a profit driven (unfortunately) enterprise. Personally, I'm glad when they don't cover us. I'm not sure I think it is "shoddy" journalism either. I don't think there is a reason to mention us unless it is newsworthy. Hrm. You attribute too much to conspiracy here. And for that matter, nobody has to "indoctrinate" us on the notion that Christians are dominant. They are dominant. However, I don't think the media has ever made the statement that if you aren't a Christian you aren't an American. There are individuals who say that, and the media covers them. That, however, is their job. They are supposed to cover people who say things like that. They also cover Neo-Nazis, Environmentalists, Jon Stewart, and all sorts of other people who say things which are sensational or newsworthy.
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aj
Thinker
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Post by aj on Jun 28, 2007 8:58:27 GMT -5
my personal problem with them is as its been mentioned a few times. they firmly believe that we are the servents of evil, that anyone that doesnt follow their religion (some differ slightly on this depending on whether the person knew of it or not) will burn in hell. the way its set up means you cant explain it to them. if they start to come around they're being decieved by satan. hell according to some of the things I've heard them say if you suffer its satan trying to make you think god hates you so you'll leave him, if you dont suffer its cause satan already has you and isnt worried about getting your soul anymore.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 28, 2007 9:48:21 GMT -5
my personal problem with them is as its been mentioned a few times. they firmly believe that we are the servents of evil, that anyone that doesnt follow their religion (some differ slightly on this depending on whether the person knew of it or not) will burn in hell. So? The only problem is, as you say, your "personal problem." Why do you care what they think? Do you believe that their belief you will burn in their Hell will somehow make it happen? The fact that others might be intolerant in their beliefs has little bearing on you. This world is full of people who dislike other people. That is the way it has always been. That is the way it will always be. Dislike is fine. They have the right to hate our guts, think we will burn in their Hell, and so on. Exactly. So, if you now realize that there is no way to get around their theology, you are almost home. The final step is learning to accept it, shrug your shoulders, and don't waste any time worrying about it. They don't like us. They are never going to like us. It is their loss, not ours. I reserve my energy for fighting actual discrimination and persecution. Dislike and disagreement doesn't meet that criteria. Remember, it takes two to have an argument. We are only at war with the Christians if we choose to show up. Otherwise they are ranting and raving for their own entertainment. Let them.
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Post by Der Trommler on Jul 1, 2007 11:43:52 GMT -5
I'm going to offer my opinion now: First, it's true that Pagans did terrible things in the first place. Pagan Rome had slain Jesus. (which could be another argument for Christians to hate us....). So I believe that people are people & there are always going to be 'bad seeds.' As much as we think Pagans are better people, I've come to understand that there are bad 'Pagans' too.....(I do use the term Pagan loosely as many non-Christian people will label themselves this...) Truth in history, what we see is Christians making the evil doings because they have been in 'power' for the last two millenia. We can site things such as the Salem Witch Trials (yet the Puritans were duped as much as this was sited as a vendetta by Puritan family on several people), The Spanish Inquisition (I do not know much more about this but it still scares me), The Holy Crusades.....I did make notice of several things during the Dark Ages that come to my mind-The Roman Church (funny how the place where the orders to kill Jesus ends up as the place of power for him-using this wording on purpose) odered that no other could read or write a language, only those of the cloth could attempt that. Next, only those of the cloth could attempt anything dealing with music. Whether it be reading/writing or singing/playing anything of that nature, an act that could result in a penalty of death. So, what most people remember is what Christianity did wrong (I did). They did/do good for the world too. The only issue that I've found out is that the Christians that I've encountered will not accept any other religion for any reason. For this reason, Pagans have tried to fight back. This stirred up a bees nest. Both sides are unwilling to bend to see the other side. The Pagans that are most against Christianity WERE Christian (I haven't seen otherwise yet). I am a recovering Catholic. Christianity bugged me not because I was slighted in some way but OTHERS were slighted by Christians. That & I just couldn't follow the religion. There were too many holes in their theories. *example: The Great Flood-Noah builds the Ark & the world can survive. While this has been scientifically proven to be true, how is it that our world could survive with taking only two of every species? It would be inbreeding to carry on with such few (another part of the theory of Adam & Eve starting it all). Also, wouldn't the fish actually not need to be taken on board as they can survive a flood? It makes so many points that seem not to make sense. Too many Christians try to theorize why that is but it actually makes it worse..... The people I feel most bad for is the hybrid Pagans (you know people who take both elements from both Christianity as well as Pagan)....Pagans who can't stand Christians & vice versa put them in a world unto themselves.... Anyway, I guess we seem to generalize the one group for the bad seeds we encounter (racism is another version of such). Do we need to do that? No, but it's something that we do (probably because of upbringing to think such) One more thing, *I hate all you people who generalize....
*Warning-Disclaimer: this is a joke...the Surgeon General has advised that taking jokes of this nature seriously is a danger to your health.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jul 1, 2007 23:20:38 GMT -5
First, it's true that Pagans did terrible things in the first place. Pagan Rome had slain Jesus. (which could be another argument for Christians to hate us....). So I believe that people are people & there are always going to be 'bad seeds.' The Romans excecuted Jesus (if the events are correct) per the demands of the law. This was neither a good nor a bad thing. Jesus, as the story goes, was indeed in violation of the law, and made not attempt to argue otherwise. Christians in general don't blame Rome or Pagans for the death of Jesus because the Romans had little interest in Jesus. It was the ruling powers among the Jews who hated Jesus and his teachings, and it was they who demanded that Jesus be taken into custody and before the Romans for judgement. This is what some Christians (and racists) base their dislike of Jews today. That being said, Pagans of all stripes did all sorts of things which are horrible by today's standards, and far worse than the lawful excecution of a criminal. It was Pagan Rome which wrought genocide in Gaul, killing men, women, and children. Rome would bring some captives back alive to Rome to strangle them on the steps of the Senate for all to see. They treated the women as property and slavery was a way of life. The Pagan city states of Greece reached levels of barbarity seldom seen, wiping each other out with equal abandon even as they did so to others. Their bloodlust matched their logic. The endless waves of Germanic and Celtic tribes made warfare an art, wrought human sacrifice on a regular basis, and had no qualms about slavery either. And Pagans, just like Christians, often framed their wars and killing in a religious light. I'm leaving out lots of Pagan cultures here, but I'm sure I'll touch on them shortly. You are quite correct. We complain about Christians because they are currently viewed as being at the top of the hill. You went on to list a litany of examples of Christians acting badly, although I would argue that most of those things were just people acting badly and using religion as an excuse for things they were doing for mundane reasons. Hrm. I don't agree with any other religion either. I think most of you are wrong. I accept that you have the right to believe whatever you want, and I will defend that right, but that doesn't mean I accept your views, beliefs, or morality. Most Christians will likewise fight (and have) for our rights to believe whatever we want. The majority fo the rights we enjoy today were bought with CHRISTIAN blood. This is (and has been) a Christian nation, so the liberties we enjoy were earned for us by people who were largely Christian. If they were unwilling to accept our right to other religions as you suggest, then we wouldn't be here on this board talking. Clearly they do. Really? When did Pagans start /fighting back/ and may I ask what they are /fighting back/ against? I'm not sure why I (or they) have to bend to see anything. We disagree. We can agree to disagree. I agree with you here 100%. In my experience the most militant, rabid Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens are all ex-Christians. I wish they had remained Christians. All they did was change the names of the powers they venerate but kept the same morality and methodology they had in the religion they left. The ironic thing is they come over here, scream and rant, bitch and moan. They kick up a lot of hate and dust at the faith they left behind, and more often than not, end up going back to Christianity one day, Prodgial sons and daughters. I've seen it time and time again. The normal hang time is about three years. Are you saying you left Christianity because they didn't approve of others and because their theology has holes in it? Well, I'm sure you now know that there are lots of Pagans who don't approve of others. In fact, YOU clearly don't approve of Christians. You refer to yourself as a "recovering" Catholic as if it is a mental defect or a disease. How are you different from them in their attitude about us? Also, I'm not sure which Wiccan, Pagan, or Heathen faith you follow but there are enough holes in most mythologies to drive an AIRCRAFT CARRIER through. As it happens, the story of Noah was PAGAN. It was appropriated from Assyrian mythology by the Hebrews. And for that matter, a global flood has been disproven by science. A regional flood took place but even then it didn't cover everything. I'm assuming that is the part you are joking about?
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Post by Der Trommler on Jul 3, 2007 23:57:44 GMT -5
Yes, I jest about Christianity. I have had issues with many things but I found that Paganism has been more of a way of life. I'm far from a militant thought process. It's not that I haven't been guilty of such an act. The fact of matter is that I live as a Catholic but was say, 'not feeling the love.' So to speak.... Basically, the way of Christian life, never gave me that warm fuzzy feeling (I'm using these words VERY loosely for levity. It's just once I realized that I wasn't really following any sort of Christian belief system, I wasn't Christian. Now I didn't just slap Pagan onto myself immediately. This was about 20 years of my beliefs surfacing more & more to the point I realized that I was much more geared towards Paganism. This became interesting as I started reading peoples beliefs through books, talking to other non-Christians as well as my sister (a Jehovah's Witness). It was through something a long time ago came back to me. I was fascinated in my heritage as well as the Celts. This inevitably has me here & loving the reading of druids, Celts as well as the history/mythology of Ireland & Scotland. So, as a former Christian, I have found that the angry Pagan happens more often than not in former Christians. Now when I speak of fighting back, I mean in terms of finally coming forth & not hiding their beliefs. This really needs to be done as Pagans (in general) seem to be either to lax in wanting to have equal rights or too militant in wanting it now. Of course, this friction does start arguments with Christians. Why? Upbringing....Holier than thou attitude (on both sides), we all contribute...
Here's a kicker for you, my sister (the Jehovah's witness) & I get along great in our great many theology debates. Why? I respect her religion (I found that JW's seem to be the closest to the way Christianity should have been IMHO) & she respects mine (in whatever direction I go)...It seems that there isn't a clouded veil in most Christian faiths to confuse us. (I say this as most history has pointed out that many Christian moments & holidays are actually Pagan)....
Did I make my point a little clearer? Hope so...as far as disagreeing....we all do with everyone at one point or another...sometimes even with ourselves....
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jul 4, 2007 10:34:51 GMT -5
Yes, I jest about Christianity. I have had issues with many things but I found that Paganism has been more of a way of life. I'm far from a militant thought process. It's not that I haven't been guilty of such an act. The fact of matter is that I live as a Catholic but was say, 'not feeling the love.' So to speak.... Fair enough. I might suggest that Christianity wasn't a way of life to you, but that there are millions of people who find it to be more than dogma, more than faith, but a way of life. A good number of them do feel the love or the religion wouldn't be as successful as it stands. When we demonize them or make jokes at their expense, we are in fact no better than those among them who do the same to us. I'm not trying to be politically correct or sound like Yoda. I don't care a whit for Christianity or their beliefs. I do however believe that we don't do ourselves any favors by acting in such a way. In fact, in the long run I think we do ourselves great harm. My motives are thus, self serving but honest. We should treat other faiths as we wish to be treated, or we lose all right to complain about anything. That's true. The moment you decide that Jesus Christ is not the son of God, you are disqualified from being a Christian. That is kind of mandatory. All else is negotiable. Christianity, unlike many other religions, is entirely a matter of faith. You either have it or you don't. You either want to find it or you don't care about it. Fair enough. I am curious though. Did you choose Paganism because you found yourself more geared to it, making it more convenient to your lifestyle, or did you find your way to a specific belief under the Pagan umbrella because you found truth there? The two motives are very different. It is possible to have both motives, but most people I talk to are driven by one or the other. Myself, I don't consider "Paganism" a religion. It is an Anthropological blanket term covering a wide variety of beliefs and systems. It is, in fact, utterly worthless for saying anything other than "I'm not a member of any of the mainstream faiths." It is like trying to define a cat only by saying it isn't a dog. I am a more detail-oriented kind of person, and I have a specific faith. It has a name, rituals, rules, practices, and particular beliefs. You may as well, but since you didn't state any I thought I would ask. It is a good observation and in my own experience, 100% correct. I've never met anyone non-Christian raised under the Pagan umbrella that has any problems with Christians. It is only expatriot Christians who seem to despise, fear, and rant about Christians. I think that is very telling. Ok. Here we disagree. In fact, I'm a little insulted. In fact, I would go so far as to say your Christian upbringing is shining through. Who says we are hiding? There is a difference between being polite and being rude. Christians are the ones that are called upon to "bear witness." It is their calling to shout their beliefs from every corner. By their standards, anyone who isn't doing likewise is "hiding." You are now preaching to their choir, not ours. Let me make something painfully clear to you. There is no such thing as the "Broom Closet." Most people I meet on any given day are Christians. I can't tell by looking at them; I would have to ask. Are they hiding in the "Christ Closet?" Of course they aren't. Most Christians are simply polite enough not to inflict their beliefs on other people. Most Pagans are the same. Our beliefs do not require external validation. I take serious offense at being called "lax" which means LAZY because I believe in being polite. I don't like being called a "coward" either. I'm not hiding from anyone. Do you get my point? I am more than capable of practicing my faith without non-practitioner's watching. Why do you want an audience? Whose motives should we be questioning? As to equal rights, we already have those. You aren't asking for equal rights. You are demanding acceptance. We aren't entitled to that. That isn't a right. It can only be earned. People don't like us. They are going to say they don't like us. That is not discrimination. That is called "free speech." We can believe and practice whatever we want. Nobody is stopping us. Nobody is dragging Pagans to death behind trucks, as a poor black man had happen to him within the last ten years right here in America. I find it embarassing when we under the Pagan umbrella try to paint ourselves as suffering martyrs when we don't rate it and people enduring real discrimination and persecution are out there. We have equal rights. Quit confusing the ability to practice and believe what you want with the expectation that other people must accept you. That is unreasonable and a logical fallacy. I agree here, and I would suggest it is your unconscious attitude that lends a big hand. My previous little rant is an explanation. I would go so far as to suggest that it is your Christian upbringing that says there are two sides and there must be a fight. I would also suggest that it is expatriot Christians pushing us harder and harder for one. The rest of us would rather be left alone to seek truth. This tempest in a teapot is nothing but a distraction, an attempt by some to justify their defection from another faith to themselves. Yes and no. Most modern faiths base their holidays on the holidays of those that came before them. That is correct. However, Pagan doesn't mean anything. For that matter, most faiths we think of Pagan today had precursors to them as well, which were probably theologically different, and they appropriated their holidays too. I'm not surprised you and your sister find theological common ground. The cornerstone of her faith is "bearing witness" as is clearly demarked in their name. You seem to share that notion. My question to you, and I'm not being combative, is "what possible bearing on truth does the validation of society have?" In other words, are you suggesting that truth is subjective and it is only true if eveyrone accepts it as valid? I would suggest that the truth doesn't care what people think and that we mere humans (even in vast numbers) have no bearing on it it. A mountain will still be there long after we cease to climb it. It will be no less the mountain. Or, a rose by any other name would still smell as sweet. Might I point out, that you say an odd thing above. You respect your sister faith more because it is what Christianity should have been. Think about that. Why would you feel that way? Are you saying that you only respect religions and faiths that agree with you? There are lots of faiths I dont' agree with but I respect them. This seems an odd disconnect. I expect that you would not respect my faith if you knew anything about it. Yes. You made yourself clearer. I don't want you to think I'm trying to pick a fight. Your arguments and beliefs are quite common. I've run across them quite often. I appreciate that you are more aware than most that we under the Pagan umbrella are often guilty of the same things we acuse others of, but I suspect you aren't aware of the depth of your own bias, the effect of your previous faith in how it makes you view and practice your current one.
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aj
Thinker
Posts: 68
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Post by aj on Jul 6, 2007 18:51:25 GMT -5
my personal problem with them is as its been mentioned a few times. they firmly believe that we are the servents of evil, that anyone that doesnt follow their religion (some differ slightly on this depending on whether the person knew of it or not) will burn in hell. So? The only problem is, as you say, your "personal problem." Why do you care what they think? Do you believe that their belief you will burn in their Hell will somehow make it happen? The fact that others might be intolerant in their beliefs has little bearing on you. This world is full of people who dislike other people. That is the way it has always been. That is the way it will always be. Dislike is fine. They have the right to hate our guts, think we will burn in their Hell, and so on. Exactly. So, if you now realize that there is no way to get around their theology, you are almost home. The final step is learning to accept it, shrug your shoulders, and don't waste any time worrying about it. They don't like us. They are never going to like us. It is their loss, not ours. I reserve my energy for fighting actual discrimination and persecution. Dislike and disagreement doesn't meet that criteria. Remember, it takes two to have an argument. We are only at war with the Christians if we choose to show up. Otherwise they are ranting and raving for their own entertainment. Let them. putting words in my mouth again. I dont care what they think except as far as it concerns me personally. They think I'll burn in hell good for them, but the ignorance and self conviction that they're right and we're all wrong still annoys me. Put I'm not about to go up and arms over it and I didnt say I would.
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aj
Thinker
Posts: 68
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Post by aj on Jul 6, 2007 19:00:03 GMT -5
Also, I'm not sure which Wiccan, Pagan, or Heathen faith you follow but there are enough holes in most mythologies to drive an AIRCRAFT CARRIER through. As it happens, the story of Noah was PAGAN. It was appropriated from Assyrian mythology by the Hebrews. And for that matter, a global flood has been disproven by science. A regional flood took place but even then it didn't cover everything. I'm assuming that is the part you are joking about? I remember reading an article on that. forgot though, where was that flood, it took out most of some ancient nation if I remember right. near Irag or Iran or something...
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jul 6, 2007 20:23:30 GMT -5
putting words in my mouth again. Actually, I'm not. I'm employing the Socratic Method. I'm asking you questions, pointed questions at that, about the reasons, motives, and outcomes of the things you propose. Why we want something or feel the way we do is often clouded to ourselves as well as others. Only by asking questions can we discover the "why" which is even more important than the "what, when, where, and how." You are contradicting yourself. Either you don't care or it annoys you. You cannot have it both ways. Clearly their view of you matters. And I would suggest you are up in arms about it. You took time to complain about it, energy to type, and effort to argue with me. If you truly attain a point wherein you don't care what they think except when it concerns you personally, you wouldn't have done any of these things.
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aj
Thinker
Posts: 68
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Post by aj on Jul 7, 2007 0:27:52 GMT -5
putting words in my mouth again. Actually, I'm not. I'm employing the Socratic Method. I'm asking you questions, pointed questions at that, about the reasons, motives, and outcomes of the things you propose. Why we want something or feel the way we do is often clouded to ourselves as well as others. Only by asking questions can we discover the "why" which is even more important than the "what, when, where, and how." You are contradicting yourself. Either you don't care or it annoys you. You cannot have it both ways. Clearly their view of you matters. And I would suggest you are up in arms about it. You took time to complain about it, energy to type, and effort to argue with me. If you truly attain a point wherein you don't care what they think except when it concerns you personally, you wouldn't have done any of these things. see you are putting words in my mouth. and no I didnt contradict myself. I said that I dont care if they think I'm going to hell unless they bug me about it and that I find the ignorance and self conviction annoying in itself. I feel the same with that last part with any body. And I ask myself my own questions thank you I examine my motives for things often and do not need people online to attempt to tell me what they are from their vantage point which is not only a narrow view but incorrect. which you only asked me 2. the rest of your 2 paragraphs was assumptions thinking I havent thought of something or that I'm wasting my time and energy doing something. I'm arguing with you not a christian and I'm argueing because its a flaw and a pet peeve of mine. I need to attempt to correct the views of people that I'll be dealing with for a long period. Them thinking of me in certain ways annoys me and unfortunately I find myself attempting to correct it until proven to myself that it is impossible. As far as up in arms I was refering to armaments, as in bombs and guns.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jul 7, 2007 8:42:02 GMT -5
see you are putting words in my mouth. and no I didnt contradict myself. I said that I dont care if they think I'm going to hell unless they bug me about it and that I find the ignorance and self conviction annoying in itself. I feel the same with that last part with any body. Hrm. Perhaps this is a context and grammar isssue. You did, however, just contradict yourself AGAIN. You say in the same breath, just above, that you "don't care if they think I'm going to hell..." and then you say, "I find the ignorance and self convinction annoying in itself." These are mutually exclusive. They either annoy you or they don't. You either don't care what they think or you do. This goes to the heart of the some of the other ongoing discussions, both in this thread and others. You are making the assertion that you don't need to learn anything. You are making the statement that only your own opinion matters. It is quite true that you can be right and I can be wrong, but I would submit that your attitude on such things does you a disservice. You better HOPE that you are 100% right and that other people are wrong when they give you an unpopular view, because since you are going to reject it out of hand, it means you will be 100% wrong if they are correct. I hope you are able to follow that. I asked you two very clear, simple questions. You still have not answered them. You are dancing around them. I followed those questions with my understanding of what I think you believe based on the context of what you wrote. It is your job, in a discussion or debate, to answer the questions, and correct the context if I am in error by supporting it. We can only go by what you say (or type in this case). I might again, with some cheek, point out that you have contradicted yourself AGAIN. Here is a quote from an inch up the page. "I need to attempt to correct the views of people that I'll be dealing with for a long period. Them thinking of me in certain ways annoys me" You clearly, as I asserted from my 1st reading of your other posts, remain bound by the demons of external validation. You care about what they think. It annoys you if their "thinking" is incorrect by your standards. To whit, you try to fix it. You even admit this is a flaw on your part. As I said earlier in the thread, you are half way home. You clearly KNOW it is a flaw. You clearly know their opinion of you doesn't matter. Go the rest of the way home. Forget about them. Let them be happy with their opinions while you puruse more important things. This is just my idea of healthy, good advice. You clearly know it in your heart already. So, what's the problem? What's the difference? All wars begin without bombs guns. They start on a white page quickly covered with text, or on a corner where someone starts to give a sermon. You take up arms when you take a position in opposition to someone and act on it in word or deed. The pen is mightier than the sword. I'm sure you have heard the platitude. It is somewhat incorrect. It would be more accurate to say, "the pen always leads to the sword."
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aj
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Post by aj on Jul 7, 2007 12:26:01 GMT -5
see you are putting words in my mouth. and no I didnt contradict myself. I said that I dont care if they think I'm going to hell unless they bug me about it and that I find the ignorance and self conviction annoying in itself. I feel the same with that last part with any body. Hrm. Perhaps this is a context and grammar isssue. You did, however, just contradict yourself AGAIN. You say in the same breath, just above, that you "don't care if they think I'm going to hell..." and then you say, "I find the ignorance and self convinction annoying in itself." These are mutually exclusive. They either annoy you or they don't. You either don't care what they think or you do. <b> must be my wording then because I still fail to see the contradiction there. hmmm let me try again. I do not care about the "hell" part unless they bother me about it directly. But I do find the opinions that they state as fact about some things annoying. hrm perhaps there is a slight contradiction there. but I dont believe its mutually exclusive.</b> This goes to the heart of the some of the other ongoing discussions, both in this thread and others. You are making the assertion that you don't need to learn anything. <b> am not</b> You are making the statement that only your own opinion matters. It is quite true that you can be right and I can be wrong, but I would submit that your attitude on such things does you a disservice. You better HOPE that you are 100% right and that other people are wrong when they give you an unpopular view, because since you are going to reject it out of hand, it means you will be 100% wrong if they are correct. I hope you are able to follow that. <b> I am able to follow it but I dont reject it out of hand. I think about it and how they may see what I have done or said and if I can see how it could be mistaken I try to correct that as well. If I fail to see how they arrived at that point I try and figure it out either on my own, by asking others, or asking them. </b> I asked you two very clear, simple questions. You still have not answered them. You are dancing around them. <b>hadnt realized this I'll answer them in a second</b> I followed those questions with my understanding of what I think you believe based on the context of what you wrote. It is your job, in a discussion or debate, to answer the questions, and correct the context if I am in error by supporting it. <b>I am trying to correct the context and it appears it hasnt done any good. </b> We can only go by what you say (or type in this case). I might again, with some cheek, point out that you have contradicted yourself AGAIN. Here is a quote from an inch up the page. "I need to attempt to correct the views of people that I'll be dealing with for a long period. Them thinking of me in certain ways annoys me" You clearly, as I asserted from my 1st reading of your other posts, remain bound by the demons of external validation. <b> I think of it more as a comfort then a requirement. If I was bound by it I'd try and change myself so that I could get their validation instead of attempting to correct them. </b> You care about what they think. It annoys you if their "thinking" is incorrect by your standards. To whit, you try to fix it. You even admit this is a flaw on your part. As I said earlier in the thread, you are half way home. You clearly KNOW it is a flaw. You clearly know their opinion of you doesn't matter. Go the rest of the way home. Forget about them. Let them be happy with their opinions while you puruse more important things. This is just my idea of healthy, good advice. You clearly know it in your heart already. So, what's the problem? <b> I've tried and failed thus far in doing this, blame it on my ocd if you want but I'm trying to correct it but until I do I will continue to act that way.</b> What's the difference? All wars begin without bombs guns. They start on a white page quickly covered with text, or on a corner where someone starts to give a sermon. You take up arms when you take a position in opposition to someone and act on it in word or deed. The pen is mightier than the sword. I'm sure you have heard the platitude. It is somewhat incorrect. It would be more accurate to say, "the pen always leads to the sword." I like that I'm gonna steal that quote from you if you dont mind. but as for the rest I see a difference between talking and physically going up in arms. debating, argueing, or even fighting and shouting are still words and mostly do mental damage if any. taking up a gun or a bomb is meant to kill and I put that on a different level of violence. when I say up in arms or think it the thought crosses my mind of guns and explosions, not a court style room and yelling.
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aj
Thinker
Posts: 68
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Post by aj on Jul 7, 2007 12:29:58 GMT -5
Why do you care what they think? <b> I live with them, and as previously stated its a small flaw on my part that I understand its source but would prefer not to blab my childhood problems on a forum, especially when they're so common and trivial anyway.
Do you believe that their belief you will burn in their Hell will somehow make it happen? no I dont. Its possible whatever I said had some reflection on what I fear my parents will feel when they discover my chosen religion.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jul 8, 2007 11:53:56 GMT -5
I understand its source but would prefer not to blab my childhood problems on a forum, especially when they're so common and trivial anyway. They are hardly trivial to you. I agree, personal problems are always trivial to other people, but we aren't talking about other people. We are talking about you. I thin you sound like a nice guy, a bit idealist but that isn't a bad thing. I don't think your problem is trivial. I just happen to believe that there is one way to deal with it. You have to come to realize that your value as a person and the value of your beliefs are decided by fiat, yourself alone. Other people, whatever they may think, don't matter. Let them believe what they want. It has no bearing on you unless you let it. You cannot change how other people feel or believe. I have all of human history to back me up on that. Being judgemental is a trait in our blood. You cannot change others, but you can change your own expectations of them. This is honest. My question is whether you are afraid of how YOU will feel if they are angry or ashamed, or whether you are afraid of of hurting them? It could be both. You aren't going to change your parent's (or anyone else's) minds on Paganism. They believe what they believe with the same strength of convinction you have. So where does that leave you? I think you have two options as far as your parents are concerned: 1. Don't tell them. Why would you? If you think it will upset them, and they will be happier not knowing, let the dwell in blissful ignorance. You wouldn't be hiding. You are simply being kind and gentle, in the same way we are with the ones we love who ask us if they have gotten too fat. 2. Tell them. Some people, and you sound that way, are only happy when they shout their beliefs to the heavens. They feel like they are being cowardly or hiding otherwise. Your sense of self suffers. If this is you, tell them. If your parents are good people they will still care about you the same. I'm not saying they won't be upset or confused. I'm not saying they won't try to fix what they view as a problem (in fact given the way you talk I'm sure they will... given that you get it from somewhere), but I am suggesting that your parents will remain your parents. You merely need to decide if this desire to be LOUD AND PROUD is more important to you than your daily social interaction being smooth. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Our choices have consequences. Now, where you are concerned you also have two choices: 1. Keep agonizing about what other people thing. 2. Cast off the fetters of the opinions of others. It really isn't anymore difficult than that, at least on paper. People never really change. They just distill and become more of what they are. In fact, I'd say that who a person is in fact is formed by the time they are 14-16 years old. Beyond that, you are just polishing up the act, picking up facts, and managing your day to day affairs. That is why I say it is pointless to try and change people.
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