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Post by Senbecc on May 31, 2007 14:34:12 GMT -5
Should we or shouldn't we? Is it wrong or right?
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 1, 2007 7:47:51 GMT -5
Should we or shouldn't we? Is it wrong or right? Ritual sacrifice has always been part of my faith, so naturally I don't see any issues with it.
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Post by KittyLane on Jun 2, 2007 8:49:30 GMT -5
I have not had anything in my practice to call for it, so I do not have a opinion about it at this time. I agree with Finn about it being a part of the faith.
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Ban leus
Seeker
Lost in the dark...
Posts: 45
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Post by Ban leus on Jun 21, 2007 2:28:39 GMT -5
I suppose whether its right or wrong comes down to the people participating in the ritual. Should we or shouldn't we?...that also comes down to the opinion of the people involved.
And if ritual sacrifice occurs within ones faith then naturally their opinion would most likely agree with ritual sacrifice?
As far as i'm concerned its not wrong as long as its done as a viable part of the religion or belief.
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Post by stormcat on Jun 21, 2007 8:08:54 GMT -5
I would give my own blood, I don't think I could take the life of another sentient being. I don't want to be the one that ends the spark of life in anyones eye. The whole act is so repellant to my nature that I would probably become an atheist. I don't have a problem with "gifts", coins shiny rocks, and such. Maybe I haven't reached a high enough level of magickal training, maybe I don't want to...
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 21, 2007 8:31:13 GMT -5
I would give my own blood, I don't think I could take the life of another sentient being. I don't want to be the one that ends the spark of life in anyones eye. The whole act is so repellant to my nature that I would probably become an atheist. I don't have a problem with "gifts", coins shiny rocks, and such. Maybe I haven't reached a high enough level of magickal training, maybe I don't want to... A fair enough notion. Of course, in my opinion, there are always people that need killing. The Romans liked to discuss the human sacrifice the Celts, to some degree because it was salacious and PR. The Roman motive aside, it wasn't untrue. The Celts did sacrifice people. Of course, such offerings were criminals and/or those captured in war. It was sort of a kill two birds with one stone affair. You get rid of an undesireable and allow said person to give something back for what they took. I have to say that I would be hard pressed to ever consider killing an innocent, sentient being, but to me at least, that is a world apart from other types of people.
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Post by KittyLane on Jun 21, 2007 8:39:34 GMT -5
I would give my own blood, I don't think I could take the life of another sentient being. I don't want to be the one that ends the spark of life in anyones eye. The whole act is so repellant to my nature that I would probably become an atheist. I don't have a problem with "gifts", coins shiny rocks, and such. Maybe I haven't reached a high enough level of magickal training, maybe I don't want to... A fair enough notion. Of course, in my opinion, there are always people that need killing. The Romans liked to discuss the human sacrifice the Celts, to some degree because it was salacious and PR. The Roman motive aside, it wasn't untrue. The Celts did sacrifice people. Of course, such offerings were criminals and/or those captured in war. It was sort of a kill two birds with one stone affair. You get rid of an undesireable and allow said person to give something back for what they took. I have to say that I would be hard pressed to ever consider killing an innocent, sentient being, but to me at least, that is a world apart from other types of people. Thank you for your unabashed honesty! I feel that sacrifice among say today's culture may be irrelevant to faith's of today. They are (faiths/religions) not usually practiced in the same way they were a thousand or more years ago. IF they were would we even be having this discussion? Ritual Sacrifice would then become common place. Going to the market for a, "sacrificial lamb" would become a weekly advertised special. 2 for 20 dollars. Get 'em while they are still kicking.
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Post by stormcat on Jun 21, 2007 8:48:49 GMT -5
Sadly enough we have not evolved enough yet not to need War, Death Sentences, Suicidal Bombers. Sometimes I dismay at the world my grandchildren will inherit. All who come here know of the Fauna and Floras fight to co-exist. When will human have taken enough from the natural world. What a barren empty rock it will be...The inhumanity of mankind is unparelled.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 21, 2007 8:57:55 GMT -5
Thank you for your unabashed honesty! I feel that sacrifice among say today's culture may be irrelevant to faith's of today. They are (faiths/religions) not usually practiced in the same way they were a thousand or more years ago. IF they were would we even be having this discussion? Ritual Sacrifice would then become common place. Going to the market for a, "sacrificial lamb" would become a weekly advertised special. 2 for 20 dollars. Get 'em while they are still kicking. There are many faiths and religions that still practice sacrifice. They don't consider it irrelevant. Of course there should probably be a discussion of the word "sacrifice" and of its meaning. There are in fact, several different types of sacrifice. The purpose and meaning are different. For the moment I'm only going to talk about the different types of sacrifice from a religious standpoint. There are many others. 1. Alturistic Sacrifice: This type of sacrifice is a personal, costly return to the powers that be. You give of yourself in a way that cuts into your personal wealth, health, or belongings. It is a sort of tithe. It is meaningless unless it comes with some sort of pain. Buying a goat and sacrificing it still costs you money. The more dear the sacrifice, the more value metaphysically speaking. 2. Barter Sacrifice: This type of sacrifice is done in trade with the powers that be. You are giving them something not in thanks but in hopes of a direct return. You give them what you think they want, or what they tell you they want. There is no such thing as a free lunch. To get something you must give. You can make barter sacrifices for good reasons, bad reasons, and reasons hard to judge. Now there are some that argue there is no such thing as a true alturistic sacrifice. Even when you do it just to say "thank you" and only give of yourself, there is the unspoken wish and expectation that your gratitude will purchase more good will. I'm not here to address that discussion, but it bears mentioning. I am going to give some more unabashed honesty, however. Sacrifice has not become irrelevant. If anything, in this world where personal sacrifice has become rare, it has only grown in value. If it were commonplace, there would be no more meaning to it than saying "top of the morning!" Sacrifice is measured not only against personal cost, but also against your peers. I think the fact that people don't practice sacrifice anymore demonstrates a change in attitude, and not for the better. While it is comforting that human beings aren't carved up on alters or burned in effigies anymore, that hasn't lowered the body count. More human beings have been excecuted in non-religious pogroms than in the entire history of religious strife. Human life has become cheaper, and the degradation of the human spirit follows. There was a time when taking a life had great meaning and signifigance. Today people will shoot a Pizza Delivery Guy for a free pie. We have taken them ritual and pomp out of killing, and I don't think it has served us well. Worse still, we are indiscriminant about who we kill. I prefer that it happen for reasons and with ritual so that we don't marginalize what is being done.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 21, 2007 9:03:22 GMT -5
Sadly enough we have not evolved enough yet not to need War, Death Sentences, Suicidal Bombers. Sometimes I dismay at the world my grandchildren will inherit. All who come here know of the Fauna and Floras fight to co-exist. When will human have taken enough from the natural world. What a barren empty rock it will be...The inhumanity of mankind is unparelled. Interesting thought, but somewhat of a paradox. There are too many people in the world. The natural world suffers because of our excess population. If one looks to Mother Nature, we see she is a harsh mistress. Death and culls are how she maintains the balance. One might argue that the best hope for our species and the rest of the planet is that something reigns us back in. Historically, human beings have been good and doing that to ourselves. At some point, we got behind the curve and our population got ahead of our bloodlust. It is like kiting checks, you can never catch up. It is a dark way of looking at it I admit, but true. I get up everyday and hope Mother Nature will hit us with something to bring us back in line. Naturally, I hope I (and the ones I care about) are among those that survive the cull, but we all take our chances. It is far better that Mother Nature do it than we do it with the weapons at our disposal now.
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Post by KittyLane on Jun 21, 2007 9:05:43 GMT -5
Thank you for your unabashed honesty! I feel that sacrifice among say today's culture may be irrelevant to faith's of today. They are (faiths/religions) not usually practiced in the same way they were a thousand or more years ago. IF they were would we even be having this discussion? Ritual Sacrifice would then become common place. Going to the market for a, "sacrificial lamb" would become a weekly advertised special. 2 for 20 dollars. Get 'em while they are still kicking. There are many faiths and religions that still practice sacrifice. They don't consider it irrelevant. Of course there should probably be a discussion of the word "sacrifice" and of its meaning. There are in fact, several different types of sacrifice. The purpose and meaning are different. For the moment I'm only going to talk about the different types of sacrifice from a religious standpoint. There are many others. 1. Alturistic Sacrifice: This type of sacrifice is a personal, costly return to the powers that be. You give of yourself in a way that cuts into your personal wealth, health, or belongings. It is a sort of tithe. It is meaningless unless it comes with some sort of pain. Buying a goat and sacrificing it still costs you money. The more dear the sacrifice, the more value metaphysically speaking. 2. Barter Sacrifice: This type of sacrifice is done in trade with the powers that be. You are giving them something not in thanks but in hopes of a direct return. You give them what you think they want, or what they tell you they want. There is no such thing as a free lunch. To get something you must give. You can make barter sacrifices for good reasons, bad reasons, and reasons hard to judge. Now there are some that argue there is no such thing as a true alturistic sacrifice. Even when you do it just to say "thank you" and only give of yourself, there is the unspoken wish and expectation that your gratitude will purchase more good will. I'm not here to address that discussion, but it bears mentioning. I am going to give some more unabashed honesty, however. Sacrifice has not become irrelevant. If anything, in this world where personal sacrifice has become rare, it has only grown in value. If it were commonplace, there would be no more meaning to it than saying "top of the morning!" Sacrifice is measured not only against personal cost, but also against your peers. I think the fact that people don't practice sacrifice anymore demonstrates a change in attitude, and not for the better. While it is comforting that human beings are carved up on alters or burned in effigies anymore, that hasn't lowered the body count. More human beings have been excecuted in non-religious pogroms than in the entire history of religious strife. Human life has become cheaper, and the degradation of the human spirit follows. There was a time when taking a life had great meaning and signifigance. Today people will shoot a Pizza Delivery Guy for a free pie. We have taken them ritual and pomp out of killing, and I don't think it has served us well. Worse still, we are indiscriminant about who we kill. I prefer that it happen for reasons and with ritual so that we don't marginalize what is being done. I Know that there are many cultures who do practice ritual sacrifice, and I also know that the world views them as monsters. I find that very sad. Most of the people who practice such things did so before any religion at all was ever established. I agree that life has became less valuable in the eyes of society. There is very little suffering in the world that most of us live in, so we become numb to the pain of others. Sympathy is lost. Care for others is a thing of the past. All that is beyond the point. I do however hope that I do not become a sacrifice over pizza. I deliver on the weekends for extra dough- hahaha.
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Post by stormcat on Jun 21, 2007 10:33:27 GMT -5
Deliver for dough...haahaa. I needed a laugh!>^..^<
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Post by KittyLane on Jun 22, 2007 8:03:34 GMT -5
Deliver for dough...haahaa. I needed a laugh!>^..^< Your most welcome. I can be really cheesy from time to time.
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 23, 2007 7:28:37 GMT -5
Thank you for your unabashed honesty! I feel that sacrifice among say today's culture may be irrelevant to faith's of today. They are (faiths/religions) not usually practiced in the same way they were a thousand or more years ago. IF they were would we even be having this discussion? Ritual Sacrifice would then become common place. Going to the market for a, "sacrificial lamb" would become a weekly advertised special. 2 for 20 dollars. Get 'em while they are still kicking. There are many faiths and religions that still practice sacrifice. They don't consider it irrelevant. Of course there should probably be a discussion of the word "sacrifice" and of its meaning. There are in fact, several different types of sacrifice. The purpose and meaning are different. For the moment I'm only going to talk about the different types of sacrifice from a religious standpoint. There are many others. 1. Alturistic Sacrifice: This type of sacrifice is a personal, costly return to the powers that be. You give of yourself in a way that cuts into your personal wealth, health, or belongings. It is a sort of tithe. It is meaningless unless it comes with some sort of pain. Buying a goat and sacrificing it still costs you money. The more dear the sacrifice, the more value metaphysically speaking. 2. Barter Sacrifice: This type of sacrifice is done in trade with the powers that be. You are giving them something not in thanks but in hopes of a direct return. You give them what you think they want, or what they tell you they want. There is no such thing as a free lunch. To get something you must give. You can make barter sacrifices for good reasons, bad reasons, and reasons hard to judge. Now there are some that argue there is no such thing as a true alturistic sacrifice. Even when you do it just to say "thank you" and only give of yourself, there is the unspoken wish and expectation that your gratitude will purchase more good will. I'm not here to address that discussion, but it bears mentioning. I am going to give some more unabashed honesty, however. Sacrifice has not become irrelevant. If anything, in this world where personal sacrifice has become rare, it has only grown in value. If it were commonplace, there would be no more meaning to it than saying "top of the morning!" Sacrifice is measured not only against personal cost, but also against your peers. I think the fact that people don't practice sacrifice anymore demonstrates a change in attitude, and not for the better. While it is comforting that human beings aren't carved up on alters or burned in effigies anymore, that hasn't lowered the body count. More human beings have been excecuted in non-religious pogroms than in the entire history of religious strife. Human life has become cheaper, and the degradation of the human spirit follows. There was a time when taking a life had great meaning and signifigance. Today people will shoot a Pizza Delivery Guy for a free pie. We have taken them ritual and pomp out of killing, and I don't think it has served us well. Worse still, we are indiscriminant about who we kill. I prefer that it happen for reasons and with ritual so that we don't marginalize what is being done. DAMN well said!
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Post by divsky on Jun 23, 2007 9:27:25 GMT -5
Should we or shouldn't we? Is it wrong or right? Wait, what exactly are we talking about sacrificing here? Humans? Wild animals? Domesticated animals? Bananas? How is it being done? Is it humane? Is it respectful? Unless it's done very carefully, humanely and with a great deal of respect and reverence I'd say it's wrong. And it's not humans. Or adorable baby raccoons.
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