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Post by theoccultchrist on May 21, 2007 4:06:00 GMT -5
I Just like being argumentitive..I havent had a good debate inawhile.. I stopped hanging round most the myspace boards..lol nor have I been anywhere near Mr. Raziel or Danielle in quite near a year. lol
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 21, 2007 4:13:11 GMT -5
Paul.... Do you have any information that you can share on the Huna stuff that you mentioned... I wandered off looking,and, I can't find anything that looks reputable....
Most of it is capitalist pigs raping Hawaiian culture to sell spa treatments....
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Post by theoccultchrist on May 21, 2007 4:22:18 GMT -5
Paul.... Do you have any information that you can share on the Huna stuff that you mentioned... I wandered off looking,and, I can't find anything that looks reputable.... Most of it is capitalist pigs raping Hawaiian culture to sell spa treatments.... i've just heard it mentioned before. Im the random factoid guy. theres a book..but you might think its by a "capitilist pig hawiann cultural rapist"... Huna Spirituality by The Scott Cunningham *Hides and waits to Gage LaLA's Reaction*
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 21, 2007 4:29:03 GMT -5
Paul.... Do you have any information that you can share on the Huna stuff that you mentioned... I wandered off looking,and, I can't find anything that looks reputable.... Most of it is capitalist pigs raping Hawaiian culture to sell spa treatments.... i've just heard it mentioned before. Im the random factoid guy. theres a book..but you might think its by a "capitilist pig hawiann cultural rapist"... Huna Spirituality by The Scott Cunningham *Hides and waits to Gage LaLA's Reaction* lmao.... well.... I don't think that I would consider Cunningham to be a reputable source for Hawaiian Culture, and or spirituality... I found what might, and I'm stressing the might be a reputable source... But, only one...99% of the information is the New Age Healing stuffs, wrapped up in lovely spa packages... Now, when you look at that... It's a lot easier to understand the shock and outrage of the people who are being culturally skrewed... with out the benefit of any lubricant...
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on May 21, 2007 15:57:52 GMT -5
And I know you follow a Druid path..but are you at all familar with Celtic Shamanism?..I dont know if its a new-age practice or not...but all I know is that it exists. So there are other forms of Shamanism out there besides the "Lakota Souix" Form..even other forms out there besides "Native American - Shamanism" Shamanism itself is a practice a spiritual practice that does not belong to just one culture. The Word "Shaman" itself actually comes from a specif people in Sibera a long long ways away from North America. There is Huna which i think is a form of Shamanism..from Hawaii. I Mentioned Celtic Shamanism. Hell, I was reading a book about the Kabballah..and it was pointing to Shamanic type ideals in the Jewish Tradition in the Old Testiment when it speaks of Jacobs Ladder. My Point is there are other forms of Shamanism besides Native American Shamanism and Even In The Paths of Native American Shamanism there are different Tribes with their own Shamanic Tradtions ..not Jus the Lakota Souix. Yes and no. As I said before, "Shamanism" as it is used by Anthropologists (and similiar fields) is a technical term which has been adopted into the popular zeitgeist. It refers to a type of supernatural medium, a person who works magic via all sorts of means and with all sorts of supernatural entities. It is deceptive for our purposes because it is already giving YOU the wrong idea. It is a useful term on a global level, for those wishing to generally file spiritualists in like groupings. It is worthless for truly comparing the so-called spiritualists within those groupings. Let me be more precise. The people you are grouping all as practitioners of shamanism do not believe the same things, nor are their practices remotely alike. They would be horrified (and often are) to be associated. A conversation I had with one indignant practitioner went like this: Shaman- So why am I called a Shaman? My people don't call us that, nor do I consider myself someone who does this "shamanism" you speak of. Other Guy- Well, that is just a technical term that tells the rest of us how you generally perceive the universe, spirits, and so on. It gives us an idea how you do your thing. Shaman- It does? What exactly is my thing then? Other Guy- *The other guy proceeds to describe traditional practices of Native Americans from the Central Plains in great detail. Shaman- I don't believe any of that crap. We don't do that. Why are you lumping me in with those people? Other Guy- Um well... your practices are more like theirs than the general mainstream I guess. I don't really know honestly. Shaman- Then don't assume, and don't call me a damn Shaman. It is our bias and fault that we like to group religious beliefs into nice, neat packages. As an Anthropologist with a specialty in this area, I can tell you for a fact that there is no such thing as "Shamanism" which belongs to the world. It is a term we have placed on others, grabbing it from a convenient source in Siberia where the first guy got the idea of grouping them thus. It really is not different from when it was decided that Native Americans would be called "Indians" because we mistakenly thought we had found India.
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Post by Senbecc on May 21, 2007 16:31:02 GMT -5
Also, as far as Ecclectic Practices Vs Traditional Goes. I am Ecclectic because A Specfic Tradition is not my cup of tea. hell as you know ihave a dash of different religions as well. Neo-PAganism PRactices and Gnostic/Mystical Christianity. I am Ecclectic not because I "Hate Traditions" .. I dont hate any tradition..I respect all view points. and I like to learn about all Cultures and Philosophies and spiritualities as much as I can. I admit that I choose to incorperate what calls to me..but its not because I dont think that one tradition is not good enough or whatever. Its just that I choose to view the Divine in a Whole Different light then say someone who may follow a specific tradition. I know next to nothing about the irish/cletic gods..At some point I would love to learn. But as I know next to nothing about it im not sure ho the path you follow chooses to view the divine but as I said in my member spotlight when asked how I view the "Gods" This is what i had to say: What is your take on the "Gods?" (polytheist, monotheist, ect.) Why? I Basicly believe in a God and a Goddess Figure. I believe all the gods and goddesses of the world (Even the ones from Monothesistic relgions) all Exist and are Valid. When I call to a Deity I do not call on a Specific one unless I have a specific God or Goddess in mind...I usually call on an Archetype or Attributes I desire..and let the god(s) come forth on its own accord. Theres a Quote I found once it says "There is Absolutey Truth in all Relgions, but Absolutle Truth in None of them." Another Quote is, "And so we ask for peace for the gods of our fathers, for the gods of our native land. It is reasonable that whatever each of us worships is really to be considered one and the same. We gaze up at the same stars, the sky covers us all, the same universe compasses us. What does it matter what practical systems we adopt in our search for the truth. Not by one avenue only can we arrive at so tremendous a secret." --- Symmachus, Quintus Aurelius Even though I believe in Multiple Deities and Believe that they are unique and Indivdual in their own right -- I see them as well as Spiritual Figures *The Bhudda, Mohammed, Yeshua/Jesus* as being inter-connected at a Universal Source. I call this the "Universal-Divine Energy" Where I believe all the worlds dieties started. I've coined the phrase "Mono-PolyTheism" That may not make sense to any of you..but it works for me, Lol. Im not really going to say "All Gods are One God" as I believe each deity has its own unique personality and what not. But what I do think is all of them have the same common source somewhere along the line..now where or what that is exactly I'm not sure. I think there are too many relgions and spiritual practices and Deities out there for one to be right and the rest to be wrong. so I do my best to respect each one in my own little way. That is why i am an ecclectic practioner and not a Traditionalist. Because I think all Spiritualities are valid..and I cannot choose one over the other..as to me that would be a dis-service to the Divine. This is what makes me spiritually fulfilled...if being a traditionalist makes you spiritualy fulfilled then more power to you. this is was fulfills me spiritually. Some may call me a fence setter..but eh..I don't care....this is my walk..I will have to answer to the divine for it and no one else. Wait Paul, you do realize this is not any one's play at being down on eclectics, or trying to invalidate the practice it's self right?
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Aislin
Seeker
She who walks on clouds of dreams, and dances in the rain
Posts: 22
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Post by Aislin on May 21, 2007 20:35:26 GMT -5
Well here goes my first addition to the community *puts on a helmet* Really, everything we do is in some way "taking from" another culture. There are no "true" (for lack of a better word. . language has a habit of not being able to express the emotion i wish to convey here, so please for give any offense) shamans / practitioners of ancient anything. Perhaps I'm a kill joy but hear me out. In order, in my mind, to be a traditional anything you must come from an unbroken, unchanged line of practitioners and the things that you do must be exactly as they were once done. Now, while I agree that reconstruction is possible, some things are regrettably lost via human error or simply they must change to fit the time. Just because we change something. . . does that make it any less vaild? I say no. For those that say Yes. . . how do you account for the creation of the first practices. . . did not someone have to "create" them? I routinely make a few of my fellows here in my town blue in the face with this argument. Specifically my friend who practices shamanism. His argument is that you can be a "true" shaman and live in the city and never go out doors because you can communicate with nature spirits via vision quest and astral travel. My counter claim is that this is not "True" shamanism. . . it is a new modified form. I hope I'm making sense, my brain is frazzled from a research paper I am working on. I guess the best way I can put it is. . . while you can have shamanic practices (drumming, vision quest, smudge ceremony etc) you cannot call yourself a true shaman, simply because they are not arround anymore. Even those whom are of native nations that live on reservations are not entirely following the ways of their ancestors . . . its not possible in this time anymore and so we modify the practices to fit our world as it is now. And as for the Souix , Well. . . I really don't have a good comment there, as they don't really like my nation (at least the Souix I know do not like the cherokee because of our practice of adoption of white people... and hell really any people.) They fail to realize that other forms of native religion exist and not everyone is out to copy them.
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Post by KittyLane on May 23, 2007 22:26:13 GMT -5
Reading over these three pages of discussion I am thinking that I understand how Native Americans could feel the way some do about Pagans.
Do I disagree with it? No and yes. All religions mainstream or not, have a common thread between them. Not all, but most have strong similarities. It would be unfair to say that ALL of those religions took from the Native Americans and so forth.
I am in agreement that it is unfair to claim Native American Spirituality as strictly pagan. It is, "Spirituality".
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Post by chiawana on May 24, 2007 13:55:58 GMT -5
This is an intriguing topic, and came up for me personally when I was seeking my Pagan path. I lived near several Indian reservations and spent a lot of time there because it just felt "right" to me. I read books on Native spirituality and practices, and have some friends who are Native American as well. Unfortunately, I am a German/English/French white chick with about 1/32 Native American ancestry. I realized that, though this path appealed to me and gave me much of what I sought, that I could never truly "be" part of it. Why? Because I had none of the ancestral heritage that plays a vital role in it. I've never lived as a Native American. I was not told by any of them that I should not seek their ways; indeed, if I had asked, I believe some of them would have willingly helped me to learn more. I believe that for many, if you are sincere and don't just come in as a "wannabe," they will accept you. I still didn't feel it was right for me. And also, I didn't want to limit my spirituality. I still believe and practice some Native American ideas in my personal path. But I've also incorporated other Pagan ideas. For me, creating my own way has been what makes my path "mine."
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Post by Senbecc on May 24, 2007 18:36:59 GMT -5
This is an intriguing topic, and came up for me personally when I was seeking my Pagan path. I lived near several Indian reservations and spent a lot of time there because it just felt "right" to me. I read books on Native spirituality and practices, and have some friends who are Native American as well. Unfortunately, I am a German/English/French white chick with about 1/32 Native American ancestry. I realized that, though this path appealed to me and gave me much of what I sought, that I could never truly "be" part of it. Why? Because I had none of the ancestral heritage that plays a vital role in it. I've never lived as a Native American. I was not told by any of them that I should not seek their ways; indeed, if I had asked, I believe some of them would have willingly helped me to learn more. I believe that for many, if you are sincere and don't just come in as a "wannabe," they will accept you. I still didn't feel it was right for me. And also, I didn't want to limit my spirituality. I still believe and practice some Native American ideas in my personal path. But I've also incorporated other Pagan ideas. For me, creating my own way has been what makes my path "mine." Well, it is one thing to be interested and want to learn about them, it is something entirely different however to to write books and claim to be a Native American "Shaman". I am very interested in the structure, beliefs, and traditions of prewhite Lakota culture for example, and I know more than some, and a whole lot less than others. However most Native cultures have an oral tradition which has never been heard by a white man, much less being taught by them IMO.
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Post by chiawana on May 25, 2007 9:19:07 GMT -5
Yes, the term "shaman" is seriously mis-used these days. Whenever I hear anyone claiming to be one I'm automatically suspicious. And you're right, the oral traditions are very private, and they should be. Another reason I knew I could never pretend to be Native American. Lucky you, living in South Dakota. It's a beautiful place.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on May 25, 2007 9:30:16 GMT -5
I think a good deal of it also goes to identity. The rituals themselves can be stolen, taught, and duplicated. The question is what is it exactly that people are trying to acquire? My argument is that it has nothing to do with the individual rituals, rites, and beliefs and everything to do with trying to legitimize oneself, to garner an identity. It is the spiritual version of "Vanilla Ice."
The simple fact is that many magical practices are also cultural practices and tied directly to a cultural identity that you can never be a part of no matter how much you try or wish it were true. You will always be an outsider. Those who are born of that culture never understand (nor do I) why you have such a desire. They respect and are complimented by people who have an interest in their culture and ways, but it is CREEPY when others want to "Single White Female" them.
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Post by Marcus on May 25, 2007 11:57:52 GMT -5
I have my own opinions of course, but I am curious to hear the comments, questions, and rebuttals of others before I state my own peace. Do the Lakota have a right to be pissed off? Are they merely exercising an understandable wish to maintain the nuance of their culture? Or are they merely being intolerant and fundamentalist? Is their wish to preserve their culture racist? Without a doubt, Wiccans, Pagans, and even a few Heathen groups are guilty as sin (if you will forgive the pun) of plundering their culture and spirituality. In my opinion I do not think it is racist to have pride in ones culture. I also believe it is not racist to then to be offended whenever other "à la carte" individuals pick and choose from different cultures like picking food from a menu to make their own 'culture' and then teach other younger generations that their beliefs are the true practices of the ancients.
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Post by Senbecc on May 26, 2007 0:02:20 GMT -5
I have my own opinions of course, but I am curious to hear the comments, questions, and rebuttals of others before I state my own peace. Do the Lakota have a right to be pissed off? Are they merely exercising an understandable wish to maintain the nuance of their culture? Or are they merely being intolerant and fundamentalist? Is their wish to preserve their culture racist? Without a doubt, Wiccans, Pagans, and even a few Heathen groups are guilty as sin (if you will forgive the pun) of plundering their culture and spirituality. In my opinion I do not think it is racist to have pride in ones culture. I also believe it is not racist to then to be offended whenever other "à la carte" individuals pick and choose from different cultures like picking food from a menu to make their own 'culture' and then teach other younger generations that their beliefs are the true practices of the ancients. It isn't racist at all, I agree 110%. I was never really one for doing that either, just never made sense to me. I don't see anything wrong at all with being Irish, and being interested in the Greeks, Romans, Wica/Wicca, and the HOSTS of other interests I have. However my path is set, while I study other such topics, I never adopt their ways into my practice. As I've said before, I'm not overly "down" on such things, I do feel it is important that they admit when they've borrowed from other cultures to form what they practice.
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Post by Marcus on May 26, 2007 7:01:46 GMT -5
In my opinion I do not think it is racist to have pride in ones culture. I also believe it is not racist to then to be offended whenever other "à la carte" individuals pick and choose from different cultures like picking food from a menu to make their own 'culture' and then teach other younger generations that their beliefs are the true practices of the ancients. It isn't racist at all, I agree 110%. I was never really one for doing that either, just never made sense to me. I don't see anything wrong at all with being Irish, and being interested in the Greeks, Romans, Wica/Wicca, and the HOSTS of other interests I have. However my path is set, while I study other such topics, I never adopt their ways into my practice. As I've said before, I'm not overly "down" on such things, I do feel it is important that they admit when they've borrowed from other cultures to form what they practice. Indeed! I am not saying that one shouldnt be allowed to study other cultures as that would be ridiculous. Its whenever people start picking and choosing and then using the gods for their own means without truly trying to understand the gods. Then the worst crime of all is to, as i said, try to pass on their 'à la carte cultures' to others claiming them to be legitimate. That destroys cultures it doesent save them.
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