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Post by stormcat on Jun 19, 2007 20:45:10 GMT -5
I can't even think of a witty or flip comment at this time. Does anyone have a Pagan Manifesto available? Come on Kitty let's start our door to door conversions.>^..^<
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Post by tanath on Jun 20, 2007 1:47:22 GMT -5
I'm not saying by any means that they were harsh. Though it came across to me as a conversion attempt which is not something i shine to. Thus i gave my own reasoning for not considering the possibility of a conversion. Heh. All discussion of faith and religion is a "conversion" attempt. There is the hard sell, the soft sell, the hook, the bait, and countless other methods. Whenever Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens discuss what they believe, it is for the purpose of conversion. There is no other legitimate reason to tell people what you believe. You can call it education, but it is no different from "bearing witness." Why do we have these sites? Most would say so Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens can find each other, exchange ideas, and so our numbers grow. Eh. Same old song and dance. It doesn't bother me much when people try to convert me, Christian, Wiccan, or whatever. It is their thing. i'm glad you aren't offended by people trying to convert you. it means you're a strong person. i'm not that strong. i don't like it when someone triesto convince me that what i believe is wrong and that i need to belive what they believe. it irritates the SHIT out of me. i don't talk about religion with the intent to convince someone to believe what i believe. the most i ever want out of someone is for them to at least respect what i believe, and maybe understand why i believe it. i don't want people to conver me, so i don't try to convert them.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 20, 2007 8:17:09 GMT -5
i don't talk about religion with the intent to convince someone to believe what i believe. the most i ever want out of someone is for them to at least respect what i believe, and maybe understand why i believe it. i don't want people to conver me, so i don't try to convert them. Hrm. I think you are splitting hairs here and trying to dance around the whole "bearing witness" thing. If you want them to "respect" what you believe, and "understand" it then you want them to KNOW it. This is a politically correct way of saying I want to teach them. Why should you care if they understand what you believe? Why should you care if they respect the beliefs themselves? It isn't required. All that we require in this country is that they respect your RIGHT to disagree with them and believe different things. Expecting them to respect the beliefs themselves is a desire to convert. There is a profound difference between the two. For example, Blackwolf (who hasn't been around much of late) believes all sorts of, in my opinion, kooky things. I don't respect his beliefs. I don't care about understanding them because I don't think he understands them either. HOWEVER, I respect his right to believe in it. I would defend his right to say these things. I would simply feel (as do Christians when they hear out beliefs) it is likewise my duty to challenge said beliefs. The Neo-Nazis in America are a good example. Most people don't like them. I don't like them. However, I would go to ground to fight for their right to spew their hatred. That being said, I would also show up at the counter protest. I hope you see my point. If you are saying you just want people to respect your right to believe in whatever you want, we are 100% in agreement. However, if you are saying you expect others to respect the beliefs themselves you are demanding something you have no right to demand. Moreover, if you are demanding that people never have the audacity to tell you they think you are wrong, you are likewise acting with hubris. Disagreement does not equate to discrimination or persecution. That is one of my main complaints with my peers among Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens. Someone says we are wrong and out comes the emotional resposne. "They are discriminating against me!" That is often followed by, "Quit trying to convert me!" My gut response is often brutal. "Grow up." There are people who suffer real discrimination and persecution in the world. When we cry wolf and compare ourselves to them we make ourselves look like self centered fools. I'm not saying this is you. I found your response well within acceptable amounts of irritation, but it does require me to address the source of your irritation. What is it? Can you differentiate between respecting/understanding your right to believe in whatever you want and respecting/understanding the beliefs themselves? In a rush of emotion, people often forget they aren't the same. Our country is built on freedom of religion/speech/etc. It isn't built on "freedom from" those things. In fact, for our system to work, you must have all the jerks able to tell you that you are wrong, come to my side.
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Post by KittyLane on Jun 20, 2007 9:00:51 GMT -5
I can't even think of a witty or flip comment at this time. Does anyone have a Pagan Manifesto available? Come on Kitty let's start our door to door conversions.>^..^< I'm ready are you? What outfit are you wearing? I might wear a stereotypical pointy hat, and some raggedy old black clothes. OH and some pointy heeled shoes!
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 20, 2007 9:31:26 GMT -5
Unfortuanetly i would have to disagree with you there. Not all talks of religion are a conversion attempt because to attempt such a thing is to have the intention to do so when you start the conversation. And considering most people on these forums aren't talking to others for the reason of converting each other than it would seem that not all talks of religion are conversion attempts. We can agree to disagree. That is what seperates us from fanatics. But I would ask you to tell me why people are talking to each other on these forums then? You have stated that my assertion that it has to do with "bearing witness" and "conversion" aren't correct. Fair enough. So what are they doing then? What is the motivation? Ahem. People who become subject to new ideas and opinions, opening new doors and boundaries... learning... are being CONVERTED. Their beliefs and practices are changing by exposure to the ideas, statements, and arguments of others. Not to sound smug, but didn't you just restate my argument? There is a theory called "Deconstruction." It is a long, complex theory but I'll try to boil it down. Everything anyone says or does is determined by personal bias. No one can escape it. Everything is tainted at the source. The only way to understand anything is to attempt to desconstruct what people say and do by nature of their bias, and MORE IMPORTANTLY be aware of our own bias in the process. The very way we perceive the bias of others is likewise tainted by our own. Let me give an example. Let's say we are doing an archeological dig in South America and come across these ruins with lots of icons and symbols which we go about trying to translate. There are spears and skulls. There are flowers and maize (corn). We find things which look like alters and thrones. We find animals of various sorts and clearly there is a pattern. We find the skulls and spears come up very frequently. We likewise find there are the occasional appearances of pretty flowers and maize. What do you think these icons represent? Most people would assume the spears represents war/battle. The skulls mean death. The flowers could be a wide range of things, but generally we think of them as positive. Spring, love, a good season, a birth. The maize likewise might mean crops or years. But, that is all hogwash. Upon close inspection we find the following: The flower represents war. The maize respresents tribute. The skull represents birth and life. The spear represents peace. Our eyes boggle. It doesn't make any sense. We were reading EVERYTHING wrong. We are not privy to the context. We don't know the bias. In East Asian countries the color white is worn at funerals the way we wear black in the west. Our very thought processes are wired to bias and as such it is inescapable. All we can do is make ourselves aware of it, understand it is there, and acccept it. Changing it isn't really an option. We are what we are. Faith is a personal thing. I've said this before in other threads. Religion is not. The moment you open your mouth and tell other people about your beliefs, you are attempting something, to change minds, alter your environment, affect the world. There has to be a motivation for it. If you don't think it is to "bear witness" or "convert" explain to me why you are doing it. Tell me your bias, your actual motive? I'm not arguing for the sake of argument. I think it is a topic worthy of discussion, hard discussion because it goes to the very core of who we are and where we are going.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 20, 2007 9:40:42 GMT -5
I can't even think of a witty or flip comment at this time. Does anyone have a Pagan Manifesto available? Come on Kitty let's start our door to door conversions.>^..^< All flip comments aside, I've read many Pagan Manifestos over the years. I expect so have you. Simply because, as you joke, Pagans do not go door to door trying spread the good word of the Goddess (or whatever), doesn't mean they aren't trying to do it in other ways. It also doesn't mean that door-to-door Pagans won't one day exist. I think it is very likely they will. In fact, when I was in a larger city than I am in now, I have had Wiccans come to my door to hand out flyers and invite me (they didn't know I was already a Pagan) come to their Potluck Dinner where they were going to try and educate the community about themselves so people wouldn't be afraid.
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 20, 2007 13:35:38 GMT -5
I can't even think of a witty or flip comment at this time. Does anyone have a Pagan Manifesto available? Come on Kitty let's start our door to door conversions.>^..^< All flip comments aside, I've read many Pagan Manifestos over the years. I expect so have you. Simply because, as you joke, Pagans do not go door to door trying spread the good word of the Goddess (or whatever), doesn't mean they aren't trying to do it in other ways. It also doesn't mean that door-to-door Pagans won't one day exist. I think it is very likely they will. In fact, when I was in a larger city than I am in now, I have had Wiccans come to my door to hand out flyers and invite me (they didn't know I was already a Pagan) come to their Potluck Dinner where they were going to try and educate the community about themselves so people wouldn't be afraid. I can see where you're coming from on this Finn, though I agree and disagree. On the one hand it is common for one to seek those of like mind, and many Christian denominations have taken this a step further by declaring that to save a soul is to find god, so they become given to the whole door to door thing and spamming pagan websites. This is how they meet god, by trying to convert others, this is entirely different however that speaking on one's faith with those who are already of like mind. This becomes an attempt to learn more deeply and expand into awareness of one's chosen field. While I'd be the first to admit I love to see someone who is new to the path of Celtic spirituality and will help them, I simply don't see it as the same thing as spouting off and making hit-n-run posts as the OP has done here.
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Post by tanath on Jun 20, 2007 14:28:13 GMT -5
i don't talk about religion with the intent to convince someone to believe what i believe. the most i ever want out of someone is for them to at least respect what i believe, and maybe understand why i believe it. i don't want people to conver me, so i don't try to convert them. Hrm. I think you are splitting hairs here and trying to dance around the whole "bearing witness" thing. If you want them to "respect" what you believe, and "understand" it then you want them to KNOW it. This is a politically correct way of saying I want to teach them. Why should you care if they understand what you believe? Why should you care if they respect the beliefs themselves? It isn't required. All that we require in this country is that they respect your RIGHT to disagree with them and believe different things. Expecting them to respect the beliefs themselves is a desire to convert. There is a profound difference between the two. For example, Blackwolf (who hasn't been around much of late) believes all sorts of, in my opinion, kooky things. I don't respect his beliefs. I don't care about understanding them because I don't think he understands them either. HOWEVER, I respect his right to believe in it. I would defend his right to say these things. I would simply feel (as do Christians when they hear out beliefs) it is likewise my duty to challenge said beliefs. The Neo-Nazis in America are a good example. Most people don't like them. I don't like them. However, I would go to ground to fight for their right to spew their hatred. That being said, I would also show up at the counter protest. I hope you see my point. If you are saying you just want people to respect your right to believe in whatever you want, we are 100% in agreement. However, if you are saying you expect others to respect the beliefs themselves you are demanding something you have no right to demand. Moreover, if you are demanding that people never have the audacity to tell you they think you are wrong, you are likewise acting with hubris. Disagreement does not equate to discrimination or persecution. That is one of my main complaints with my peers among Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens. Someone says we are wrong and out comes the emotional resposne. "They are discriminating against me!" That is often followed by, "Quit trying to convert me!" My gut response is often brutal. "Grow up." There are people who suffer real discrimination and persecution in the world. When we cry wolf and compare ourselves to them we make ourselves look like self centered fools. I'm not saying this is you. I found your response well within acceptable amounts of irritation, but it does require me to address the source of your irritation. What is it? Can you differentiate between respecting/understanding your right to believe in whatever you want and respecting/understanding the beliefs themselves? In a rush of emotion, people often forget they aren't the same. Our country is built on freedom of religion/speech/etc. It isn't built on "freedom from" those things. In fact, for our system to work, you must have all the jerks able to tell you that you are wrong, come to my side. i think i phrased it wrong. i want people to respect that i believe what i believe. i want them to respect the fact that i have the right to my beliefs. they don't have to respect the beliefs themselves, jsut my right to blieve them.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 20, 2007 14:59:01 GMT -5
i think i phrased it wrong. i want people to respect that i believe what i believe. i want them to respect the fact that i have the right to my beliefs. they don't have to respect the beliefs themselves, jsut my right to blieve them. No problem. That is why I asked for clarification. We are in agreement 100% that people (in this country at least) should respect your right to believe (and say) whatever you want.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 20, 2007 15:13:23 GMT -5
I can see where you're coming from on this Finn, though I agree and disagree. On the one hand it is common for one to seek those of like mind, and many Christian denominations have taken this a step further by declaring that to save a soul is to find god, so they become given to the whole door to door thing and spamming pagan websites. Perhaps. Although I suspect that Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens aren't really of "like mind," or not nearly as much as they like to think. It should also be said that I've see my peers spam Christian sites too. Clearly there are many under the Pagan Umbrella that go read the posts made for the reading of Christians and who feel they must respond to it. How is that any different than the hit and run posting here? Wren's Nest on Witchvox regularly posts things that come from what are clearly Christian sites, writing for Christian consumption. Soon after, those sites are hit by all manner of irritated Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens posting their comments. We will have to agree to disagree that there is much difference. We will have to agree to disagree here. I see no difference in it. I would argue that the only reason you see a difference is personal bias (a bias you and I share). Whether you are talking to people who agree with you, don't agree with you, or are neutral there is still a motive for the discussion in the first place. Other people are not required for an individual's faith. This means we talk to other people to convince them or perhaps to help convince ourselves. Either way, it is still "bearing witness." We do more of a "soft sell" but we are still selling something.
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Post by stormcat on Jun 20, 2007 22:30:31 GMT -5
Kitty, I was thinking of my Caftan. It's Rainbow colored, I was leaning towards flip flops since it's summer. I don't think this will be to successful, everyone will expect us to cast spells for them. Finn I have to admit that I've never seen door to door Pagans. They were a brave lot, more so than I.>^..^<
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 21, 2007 0:03:41 GMT -5
I can see where you're coming from on this Finn, though I agree and disagree. On the one hand it is common for one to seek those of like mind, and many Christian denominations have taken this a step further by declaring that to save a soul is to find god, so they become given to the whole door to door thing and spamming pagan websites. Perhaps. Although I suspect that Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens aren't really of "like mind," or not nearly as much as they like to think. It should also be said that I've see my peers spam Christian sites too. Clearly there are many under the Pagan Umbrella that go read the posts made for the reading of Christians and who feel they must respond to it. How is that any different than the hit and run posting here? Wren's Nest on Witchvox regularly posts things that come from what are clearly Christian sites, writing for Christian consumption. Soon after, those sites are hit by all manner of irritated Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens posting their comments. We will have to agree to disagree that there is much difference. We will have to agree to disagree here. I see no difference in it. I would argue that the only reason you see a difference is personal bias (a bias you and I share). Whether you are talking to people who agree with you, don't agree with you, or are neutral there is still a motive for the discussion in the first place. Other people are not required for an individual's faith. This means we talk to other people to convince them or perhaps to help convince ourselves. Either way, it is still "bearing witness." We do more of a "soft sell" but we are still selling something. Personally I would like to get a few bible thumpers posting their views, I was once a member of an open religion forum and there were allot of very interesting very heated debates. It would be entertaining to have that here as well.
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Ban leus
Seeker
Lost in the dark...
Posts: 45
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Post by Ban leus on Jun 21, 2007 1:41:06 GMT -5
Ahem. People who become subject to new ideas and opinions, opening new doors and boundaries... learning... are being CONVERTED. Their beliefs and practices are changing by exposure to the ideas, statements, and arguments of others. Not to sound smug, but didn't you just restate my argument? There is a theory called "Deconstruction." It is a long, complex theory but I'll try to boil it down. Everything anyone says or does is determined by personal bias. No one can escape it. Everything is tainted at the source. The only way to understand anything is to attempt to desconstruct what people say and do by nature of their bias, and MORE IMPORTANTLY be aware of our own bias in the process. The very way we perceive the bias of others is likewise tainted by our own. So in this similar way your saying that if a person joins such a forum as this, as a part of a religion like ecclectic wicca or similar, and they dicover new ideas thus contributing them to the mass of there ecclectic path then the people providing the new ideas are converting said person? I think that, yes, we will have to agree to disagree because it seems were comming to a conflict between our definitions. I cannot answer myself what the personal motivation for every person on a forum such as this is. Though my own motivation comes from the fact that i like to hear and learn from the perspective of others when i come to a debate like this. And the best way to subject yourself to a different perspective is to talk to millions of people from all around the world.
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Post by KittyLane on Jun 21, 2007 8:05:30 GMT -5
this seems to have turned into a debate... maybe it should be moved from the pub.
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Ban leus
Seeker
Lost in the dark...
Posts: 45
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Post by Ban leus on Jun 22, 2007 1:22:49 GMT -5
Mmm...i suppose that would make sense
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