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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 19:37:00 GMT -5
Senbecc im trying to say that you need to be in Ireland, wales, scotland etc if you want to follow each of those distinct celtic traditions. The land is vital to the traditions.
If i moved to wales i would start to folow welsh traditions, the same goes for scottish manx etc.
I dont try to follow a welsh path because im not in wales. I dont try to follow a scottish or manx etc for the same reason. I follow the Irish path because I am in Ireland. If i moved to North America it would be impossible to follow this path because i am no longer surrounded by the land these beliefs have been based on.
Therfore I would attune myself to what i do have over there. Yes this is adapting etc etc. But i would no longer call it following an 'Irish' path, even though I am myself 'Irish' by nationality, because im not in Ireland
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Post by Senbecc on May 2, 2008 19:43:39 GMT -5
Modern Irish have as much Viking and Anglo Saxon in them as Gaelic so blood lines is irrelevant in this. It is culture we are speaking of. Nothing irrelvent about it seeing as how an Irish Pagan believes in the power of ones lineage, going back to the gods of Ireland. Yes, there is Saxon blood there as well, as there is no such thing as a full blooded Gael. Their blood comes from all over Europe, so yes blood lines are very relivent. You're reaching pretty hard here. For one thing we down know, given the many origin ideas presented by scholars we don't know for sure where they come from, so how can one say with any certainty how they did things? However, we do know as they grew, they did spread, and we know that they kept many traditions that are obviously the traditions of cultures wich aren't even Celtic. Look at the similarites between Irish Druids and the Brahman for example. IMO, this is an example of how unchanging Celtic philosophy could be. Different, somewhat I suppose, but again you're kinda all over the place with your argument. The Celts of Brittish and Insular origin also have striking similarites in culture, law tracts, poerty, and other such things. Somethings change, but most seem to stay the same. This argument of you're not in Ireland, you can't be Irish seems futal to me. Um well, no one can follow the same path as the ancient Irish, seeing as how we simply don't have all the information. It doesn't matter where one lives.
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 19:50:39 GMT -5
I think my above post addresses somewhat your latest one so i will wait to you answer it before answering.
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 19:53:41 GMT -5
I never said that if your not in Ireland you cant be Irish. That would be refuting ones Nationality. If i moved to england i wouldnt say "oh now im english", i would still be Irish by nationality.
What i said was that in my opinion you cant follow an Irish 'Pagan' path if your not in Ireland because the path is based on the Irish land.
And yes we know very little about irish pagan traditions because fact of the matter is we really do not know what the Celtic religion actually consisted of except that it was based fundamentally on the land.
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Post by Senbecc on May 2, 2008 19:59:20 GMT -5
Senbecc im trying to say that you need to be in Ireland, wales, scotland etc if you want to follow each of those distinct celtic traditions. The land is vital to the traditions. Yes I see what you're saying, you're just not managing to prove your point. You're from Canada are you not? This argument could easily be turned the other way. Well what ever you wanna do, but it doesn't matter where I go. If I go to Wales, I'm still Irish, Scotland, still Irish, Africa...Still Irish, and my study and beleifs will still be Irish. And I don't follow Lakota ways simply because I am not a Lakota, or even a Native American. We do not practice our rites on sacred Lakota soil because it is theres. It would be like a group of Indians coming to Ireland and making their rites at New Grange. If there is one thing history teaches us about the Celts, is that their beliefs and philosophies don't simply change because of where they are. You've spoken on how the reconstructionists, are diluding fact, now you are diluding them to support your own gnosis. Again - you're dealing in gnosis not fact. I have never met any Irishman who migrated to the USA of any religion, Christian or Pagan who ever simply dropped their system of beliefs because of where they are. You would be welcome to do so, but do not try to impose that gnosis on others, it is yours and you are welcome to it.
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Post by Marcus on May 2, 2008 20:06:37 GMT -5
But have i not already said that the traditions themselves stayed very similar but changed to suit the land they were in?
Yes you are following a celtic path but not an irish one because the irish one is based on ireland, the welsh one is based on wales etc etc. YOu could learn all there is to know about the Irish path but still not implement it into your life because you dont have the essential thing that is the land it is based upon.
And no I am not from Canada. Dont know were you got that from. My families origins from generations past are from Scotland. And i dont try to follow a Scottish Pagan path or claim to be Scottish Pagan because I have no connection to the Scottish land.
I dont really know how to talk about this point any further. I must go and talk to some friends and discuss how best to answer your ideas.
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Post by Senbecc on May 2, 2008 20:09:51 GMT -5
I never said that if your not in Ireland you cant be Irish. That would be refuting ones Nationality. If i moved to england i wouldnt say "oh now im english", i would still be Irish by nationality. What i said was that in my opinion you cant follow an Irish 'Pagan' path if your not in Ireland because the path is based on the Irish land. And yes we know very little about irish pagan traditions because fact of the matter is we really do not know what the Celtic religion actually consisted of except that it was based fundamentally on the land. lol...OK, so I get to be Irish still - Cool! My nationality is Irish, I just choose to be Pagan, not Christian. Celtic religion had to do with the land, though any look at the Irish texts will show the obvious importance of Genealogy as well.
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Post by Senbecc on May 2, 2008 20:23:04 GMT -5
But have i not already said that the traditions themselves stayed very similar but changed to suit the land they were in? You also said that your path would change if you left Ireland, that wasn't what the Celts did. If you have some proof that Celtic cultures changed radically to suit the land they were in I'd be interested in seeing it. Seems like it will be difficult however seeing as how we don't even know for sure who all migrated to Ireland to begin with, and the fact archaeology shows that wars were being fought between the two peoples. Again with the gnosis. I'm following a Celtic path but not an Irish path? My gods are Irish, my traditions are Irish, my beliefs are Irish. I don't think I like being told what the path I've been on as long as you've been alive is and isn't. Could have swore you told me that on Mind n Magick. Now still I could argue that your Genealogy isn't specifically Irish as I can PROVE the significance that genealogy had to the Celts, and how that genealogy ties one to the Gods, and by being tied to the gods...Well, insert the land part here. OK.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 3, 2008 2:19:39 GMT -5
This topic has managed to go all over the place, so, I thought that I'd grab some definitions, as, I think that there are some people who are getting definitons a bit confused
Traditionalism Noun: 1. Adheance to tradtion, especially in cultural or religious practice 2. A system holding that all knowledge is derived from original divine revelation and is transmitted by tradition 3. Adherance to tradtion; sometimes, specifically; excessive attachment to tradition Tradition: NOUN: The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication. - A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.
- A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present: followed family tradition in dress and manners. See Synonyms at heritage.
- A body of unwritten religious precepts.
- A time-honored practice or set of such practices.
Law Transfer of property to another.
Culture: NOUN: 1. a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought. b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty. c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture. d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization. 2. Intellectual and artistic activity and the works produced by it. 3. a. Development of the intellect through training or education. b. Enlightenment resulting from such training or education. 4. A high degree of taste and refinement formed by aesthetic and intellectual training. 5. Special training and development: voice culture for singers and actors. 6. The cultivation of soil; tillage. 7. The breeding of animals or growing of plants, especially to produce improved stock. ok... the minor definitions are out of the way, now the fun really begins. Cultural identity is the (feeling of) identity of a group or culture, or of an individual as far as he or she is influenced by her belonging to a group or culture. There are modern questions of culture that are transferred into questions of identity. Various cultural studies and social theory investigate the question of cultural identity. In recent decades, a new form of identification and with pieces broken off from the individual as a coherent whole subject. Cultural identity remarks upon: place, gender, race, history, nationality, sexual orientation, religious beliefs and ethnicity.Culture, as a social practice, is not something that individuals possess. Rather, it is a social process in which individuals participate, in the context of changing historical conditions. As an "historical reservoir", culture is an important factor in shaping identity[1] We're still focusing on cultural Identity here... more fun stuffCombining the definitions and interpretations of identity and ethnicity it can be concluded that they mean, or at minimum imply, the sameness of a band or nation of people who share common customs, traditions, historical experiences, and in some instances geographical residence. In some instances does not equal all the time or all instances. The heritage that survives from the past is often unique and irreplaceable, which places the responsibility of preservation on the current generation.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_identitywww.ac.wwu.edu/~trimble/ethnicity_identity.htmwww.adb.org/documents/Policies/Indigenous_Peoples/ippp-002.aspen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_heritageeducation.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/traditionalismwww.yourdictionary.com/traditionalismeducation.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/traditionNow... this brings me back to the topic and discussion at hand. I think the claim that keeps being made is that "Culture" is tied to the land. I've shown that in some instances it does, but, there are many other contributing factors. Geographic location does not outweigh any of them in importance. In fact, location is the only one that states that it is not always relevant. Moving right along.... I believe that there was a statement made making the claim that blood links, heredity, ancestry was irrelevant. I'd really like to know how that can be the case, infact, I'd like sources to back up that statement. Also, someone's ethnic background does indeed contribute to their cultural makeup. Geographic location does not change that in anyway, shape or form. Given what the actual definition of culture is, I would say that some people's interpretation is very skewed. Also, you say that the culture is tied to the land and the people that inhabit it, well, that land has changed. So, by your definition, the culture no longer exists since the geographical location has changed so much.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 3, 2008 2:25:27 GMT -5
Senbecc im trying to say that you need to be in Ireland, wales, scotland etc if you want to follow each of those distinct celtic traditions. The land is vital to the traditions. If i moved to wales i would start to folow welsh traditions, the same goes for scottish manx etc. I dont try to follow a welsh path because im not in wales. I dont try to follow a scottish or manx etc for the same reason. I follow the Irish path because I am in Ireland. If i moved to North America it would be impossible to follow this path because i am no longer surrounded by the land these beliefs have been based on. Therfore I would attune myself to what i do have over there. Yes this is adapting etc etc. But i would no longer call it following an 'Irish' path, even though I am myself 'Irish' by nationality, because im not in Ireland This makes absolutely no sense at all.
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Post by Senbecc on May 3, 2008 2:54:46 GMT -5
Given what the actual definition of culture is, I would say that some people's interpretation is very skewed.
Also, you say that the culture is tied to the land and the people that inhabit it, well, that land has changed. So, by your definition, the culture no longer exists since the geographical location has changed so much. Seems to me culture and cultural tradition are tied to those who carry it on and preserve it, and is how one honors the gods. Very good post Sweets.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 3, 2008 2:58:34 GMT -5
Given what the actual definition of culture is, I would say that some people's interpretation is very skewed.
Also, you say that the culture is tied to the land and the people that inhabit it, well, that land has changed. So, by your definition, the culture no longer exists since the geographical location has changed so much. Seems to me culture and cultural tradition are tied to those who carry it on and preserve it, and is how one honors the gods. Very good post Sweets. well, I'm very happy that you thought it was a good post.
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Post by Marcus on May 3, 2008 7:58:58 GMT -5
Senbecc im trying to say that you need to be in Ireland, wales, scotland etc if you want to follow each of those distinct celtic traditions. The land is vital to the traditions. If i moved to wales i would start to folow welsh traditions, the same goes for scottish manx etc. I dont try to follow a welsh path because im not in wales. I dont try to follow a scottish or manx etc for the same reason. I follow the Irish path because I am in Ireland. If i moved to North America it would be impossible to follow this path because i am no longer surrounded by the land these beliefs have been based on. Therfore I would attune myself to what i do have over there. Yes this is adapting etc etc. But i would no longer call it following an 'Irish' path, even though I am myself 'Irish' by nationality, because im not in Ireland This makes absolutely no sense at all. Well it makes sense to me and others I know. I have asked a couple of others of their views on this a`nd today hopefully they will post their thoughts. Or send me them and I will post for them. But im now clear on my point and it is that when you look at the celts in all different countries i nthe past they all carried very similar traditions. However these traditions were adapted to the land that the celts inhabited. Even more so than this I would believe. Because in different provinces in Ireland it seems that different settlements worshipped different although similar dieties, but all conected to that local piece of land. Every tradition seemed to be localised in some form or another. That is why it is very difficult to know what exactly pagan religion at that time consisted of, because nothing was consistent in fine details, but the fundamentals were almost exactly the same. My point is that yes anyone can try to follow a Celtic path because we know the general fundamentals. But nobody can really follow an Irish path, a Welsh path, or Scottish path unless they are in that land, because the land itself is what the traditions were attributed to. And even if you are in that land it is still near impossible because we do not know what the religion itself consisted off. On the point of Lady Anastasias that the land has changed. I would disagree with that point. The land has not changed, human civilisation has changed and has in places physically scared the land. Like for example if i was in an accident and i got an awful scar on my face, yes i would be physically different looking, but i would still be the exact same person i was before the accident. On the points of culture I need to look into this abit more. But i dont think one can really define culture. Culture is unique to every person so to try and argue whose view is more correct is futile in my opinion. But for me my opinion of culture is the land that contains the culture. That is why modern day Welsh, Scottish, Irish and English are quite different from one another 'culturally'. Eevn though we live in such small islands. Like i know friends that have gone to America for a year to study and they come back and they tell me it is quite difficult getting back into the Irish culture because the American one is so different. Because they adapted to the American culture. I believe anyone can adapt to anothers culture. But you cannot do that unless you are in that culture. I cant adapt to an American culture because im in Ireland and it would be the same if it was the other way around. I dont have time to answer and express other views of mine right now but i will be back later. I think this could turn into quite an interesting discussion. Especially the discussion of what exactly culture is. We need to get a Social Anthropology Academic to take a look!
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Post by Senbecc on May 3, 2008 17:55:21 GMT -5
Can't wait to see how this plays out...
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Post by Marcus on May 10, 2008 18:40:54 GMT -5
Does not seem anyone i asked posted anything. However i did recieve one msn message. Although its not from a pagan but from somone who is studying celtic studies an language in scotland. "There was no "celtic nation" as such but it is clear that many of the customs and traditions were quite similar in all parts of the so called celtic nations. Im not quite sure that the question of religion is relevant to this? because we dont really know how they performed the religious aspects of their culture. All we know is that many of the idols were the same except they bore different names to each different celtic nation. Correct. However I would like to elaborate more on this point. Someone in another country could "worship" a pagan god from Ireland, however they could not follow the traditions that the Irish at that time because like all celtic nations their gods and goddesses were linked to their surroundings. Like the river Boyne in Ireland for example. Well modern culture of the Irish is very different from what it was back then obviously But what you spoke of at that website was correct with regards how one can adapt to a culture but only if they are amongst it. Im not sure what you meant by if you went to wales that you would worship a welsh god, like if i went to Iraq im not going to start worshipping allah. I think you need to look at your arguements with more to the point of linking the tradiditons with the lands rather than the gods because the celts all worshipped the same gods."
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