Chandra Vrika
Seeker
Blessed is the Lady of Thrones, She who is all, for the gifts she has given.
Posts: 15
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Post by Chandra Vrika on Feb 1, 2008 0:59:42 GMT -5
Today, as I read through many of the topics here, I found myself thinking on one subject in particular. (This is odd for me, since my thoughts often border on MPD; and speaking of which, I apologize in advance if I begin to derail slightly). That thought was how modern religions vary greatly from their 'humble' beginnings; and not just Pagan religions either. While it may please many to pass off Pagan religions as tainted, or a mash of other religions, or some sort of make-it-up-as-you-go thing, the truth is that most religions are at least one of those.
The world has seen many disasters through the ages, either man-made or natural, which have caused many books to be lost, destroyed, or repressed. Some of these have been recovered, but scarce few. Even Christianity (one of the so-called 'pure' religions) is plagued by lost texts, and has seen many slightly altered due to variations in translation. (Speaking of Christianity, it wasn't mentioned in the Bible until well after Christ's death, somewhere in the New Testament. Judaism was still prevalent during his life, and for some time after, and it is thus argued that he even practiced it. But that's another story.)
Change is a part of human nature. When something affects our lives, and gives us a different view on the way things work, we change our lives to suit this new view. Take the Ancient Egyptian religion, for example. Egypt had perhaps the longest surviving culture, but its religion alone went through many changes; from which Gods and Goddesses were associated with which things, and married to/parented/affected which other Gods or Goddesses, to which held the more important roles, to how they were worshiped. These changes were often brought about by discovery of new knowledge, a natural disaster, or an adoption of neighboring cultures or religions. Had the Ancient Egyptian culture survived yet, one would have to wonder what the religion would look like today.
So how is it that Pagan religions seem to be the ones singled out? Is it because many of the others that have noticeably changed over time are no longer practiced in any great numbers, if at all? Or is it because the more 'mainstream' religions have greater numbers, and a fear of being exposed?
My husband is what I can only refer to as a Jewistian. Basically, those of his faith try to go back to the more basic translations of the Bible, and put it into context. (For instance, there is no mention of Christmas in the Bible other than the first, of Christ's birth, and there is a passage stating the adornment of trees with gold is a non-Christian practice; and yet, millions of professing Christians claim that God wants them to celebrate it.)
What I am trying to say is this:
Yes, modern Pagan religions are likely not the exact same in every detail as those practiced in ancient times. So what? They still carry pretty much the same message, the same ideals, and the same overall beliefs; and as long as we are studying it, adapting it to our lives (or our lives to it), and gaining something positive from it in the end, isn't that what matters?
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Post by stormcat on Feb 1, 2008 14:50:16 GMT -5
Let me first say, I by nature am a pessimist. Natural suspicion of anything different, has lead us to great discoveries, and shattering disillusionments. I believe that this is the nature of the beast. I was shocked when I started checking into these sites, the judgments and anger at anyone different. I admit that I've become more hard skinned, and quieter. I see the validity of your questions, applaud your insight. It was dismaying at first to find out just how fragmented Pagans really are. Consider yourself lucky you have an interested spouse. Pagans, like other religious groups are made up of humans, are full of diversity. There are no easy answers...stormcat
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 1, 2008 17:37:19 GMT -5
I agree with allot of what you've written, there has been a good deal of changing, mixing, and all around loss of knowledge in the past, so much so, that sometimes it is difficult to know or understand just how solid our footing really is sometimes. This coupled with the things Stormcat mentioned are some of the many things that keep many misconceptions ongoing IMO. Now, I make it a point to keep my ideas of someone else's spirituality to myself (unless provoked - then I can be a shit like anyone else), as I have no real problems with someone else's spirituality. However, when terminology is misused and/or misrepresented from it's historical context, then I have a problem. For example, I am an Irish Druid, and my spirituality is strictly Irish drawing somewhat in practice from Welsh and Scottish sources. To call myself a Hindu Brahman, Wiccan, or anything other than Druid, or at the very least Irish would be not only a disgrace to my own ancestors, but also those of whom I claim to be lineaged to...Right? Often, what can appear to be attacking someone else's spirituality isn't much more that correcting the terminology used. It seems to get "mean" I suppose when those trying to do the correcting start getting tired of arguing it, but in my experience it isn't meant to be. While I agree with what you have written as far as today's traditions not being the same bit for bit as those our ancestors practiced, and as you said that is fine - If drawing from other paths makes you more comfortable then I for one say go for it, but call it eclectic, not Druidism. Druid inspired is fine as well, but if you're drawing from the Celts, the Greeks, Romans, etc. etc. Then it wouldn't be a Druidic path; at least not in the strictest sense. Nice post though - I look forward to the discussion.
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Chandra Vrika
Seeker
Blessed is the Lady of Thrones, She who is all, for the gifts she has given.
Posts: 15
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Post by Chandra Vrika on Feb 1, 2008 18:32:15 GMT -5
I entirely agree with you as far as terminology goes; which is mainly why I call my husband a Jewisitian. Unfortunately, not all of the people of his faith would appreciate that, so it's something we keep between ourselves. (As far as they are concerned, they are the 'true' Christians). This is also why I used the blanket term Pagan religions. Seems I have become to vague in doing so, I suppose.
Perhaps an example would help. Take what you have said about being an Irish Druid. Someone else who calls themselves the same thing might have slightly different beliefs or practices than you, and yet you are both Druids. I think the main problem I was trying to point out is that a lot of people tend to focus on those few differences, rather than the multitudes of similarities, and draw fine lines all over the place in order to differentiate everyone based on those differences. While I agree at some point a line needs to be drawn, the time usually only comes when the two become so separated from one another they are obviously different to all.
Here is another example. If I draw the letter A on one piece of paper, completely made of straight lines, then I draw another A on another piece of paper, augmented with flourishes.. They are still both the letter A. But if I take a third piece of paper, draw the letter A, then add lots of other lines, maybe erase a line or two.. Well, it's no longer an A; it's some mangled mash of lines, right? And while it may be an attractive mangled mash of lines, and someone may prefer it to the plain letter A, you can't really call it an A.
Basically, all I am trying to say is that in the end, there will always be differences of opinion, even within the same circles; the hard part is knowing where to draw the line. When does the A stop being an A?
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 2, 2008 15:15:38 GMT -5
I entirely agree with you as far as terminology goes; which is mainly why I call my husband a Jewisitian. Unfortunately, not all of the people of his faith would appreciate that, so it's something we keep between ourselves. (As far as they are concerned, they are the 'true' Christians). This is also why I used the blanket term Pagan religions. Seems I have become to vague in doing so, I suppose. Oh, I understand that, I simply used the term Druid as an example of a more specific pagan term. You were perfectly understandable I think, much of what I wrote was to Stormy too. I agree wholeheartedly here, I have many friends following the Druid's path with me who have many similarities, and of course many differences as well. The differences IMO stem from the fact that we are each individuals and will always have things to debate. That's why I like them, we can disagree with out the fear of one of us deciding we're 'holier than thou' or jumping up in a rage thinking we're disrespecting the other's beliefs. Where as in some Neo Pagan Druidic circles, no one seems to want to redefine the arts of Druidism in the truth of the past. This, I think is allot of the reason why the Druidic community has come under such scrutiny. When they take the term and use it as a self description; yet take no responsibility for holding up the term in historical and philosophical truth, then they leave us ALL open to the same attacks. Now, I have no problem with eclectic beliefs personally, and I think the term "Jewisitian" is great if he believes both are true. It seems to me to be better than claiming to be fully one or the other...Let me guess - their problems stem from the existence of Christ? I agree...I think lol. I think the A stops being an A when it begins to stop carrying the characteristics of the letter, and no longer describes the letter as closely to the original as possible. The letter will always have it's own self defined attributes that *make* the letter the letter, right?
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Chandra Vrika
Seeker
Blessed is the Lady of Thrones, She who is all, for the gifts she has given.
Posts: 15
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Post by Chandra Vrika on Feb 2, 2008 17:46:44 GMT -5
I think the A stops being an A when it begins to stop carrying the characteristics of the letter, and no longer describes the letter as closely to the original as possible. The letter will always have it's own self defined attributes that *make* the letter the letter, right? Pretty much, yes. Just sometimes people vary on where that line is drawn. (I know a few who might say the flourishes might make it no longer an A )
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Dystopia
Philosopher
I never found a companion that was so companionable as solitude...
Posts: 124
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Post by Dystopia on Feb 3, 2008 10:59:00 GMT -5
Ok then, I can see we all agree that trough generations all religions have changed to some degree. I believe these changes occur because people tend to adapt religion and its principles to their lives, rather then their lives to the principles of the religion. I guess opinions about this may vary here, but to me it doesn`t make a lot of sense. What`s the purpose of choosing to follow a particular path or a religion if you`re gonna change it to suit your lifestyle? I guess that also depends on how seriously you take your religion...whether you are willing to devote your life completely to that certain religion/path, or you are following it simply out of..mm...I don`t know ..desire to belong somewhere. However, I believe slighter alterations can be tolerated as long as they are not vitiating the essence and the principles of the given religion.
I know it is sometimes frustrating when people come and brag about themselves being a great Druid, or a great Wiccan, or Christian, or whatever, after they have read one book on the very path. I have met a lot of these in my life. Espresso druids seem to be most common, apart from wiccans. However, I try to disregard them and their opinion on the whole....Anyway, their alleged knowledge will eventually prove to be their ignorance, so I see no point arguing with them. The problem arises only when these people offer to introduce and interpret the religion to the newcomers and seekers.
Generally, I tend to focus more on the similarities between opinions, rather than on the differences, unless the differences are so drastic , that I actually need to intervene...
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Post by stormcat on Feb 6, 2008 22:31:26 GMT -5
Thank goodness real conversation, without judgement or hostility! I found the A example a great visual. An A is an A, is an A. It's when you throw in the other letters that gets the mix boiling. I try to be tolerant of others beliefs, after all what I believe has no affect on anyone elses beliefs, nor theirs on mine! Yes you'll find people who walk the straight and narrow, it's their way or the Hi-way! I've always thought that religion was malleable, adapted to the outlook of members. Guess I've still got a simplistic view of the way things are. I think I'll hop down the Bunny Trail!>^..^<
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Chandra Vrika
Seeker
Blessed is the Lady of Thrones, She who is all, for the gifts she has given.
Posts: 15
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Post by Chandra Vrika on Feb 9, 2008 12:36:12 GMT -5
Today I realized that my husband is a hypocrite, and it made me think about how many people there are in the world just like him. They expect you to be tolerant of their non-mainstream beliefs, support them in their studies, and go to their religious holidays and feasts and such. Alright, I'm all for tolerance and acceptance, but life is a two-way street, is it not? So shouldn't I be able to expect that if I accept his beliefs and support him in them, he should do the same for me? Apparently, according to my husband, it doesn't work that way. He says he doesn't have to accept my beliefs, or support me in my studies, because my beliefs are 'stupid'. What's up with people who believe that? They spend all day whining that society doesn't accept them, and labels them a cult, but they do the exact same thing to others! I'm not normally one to get worked up over what other people think, but I mean, this is my husband. How am I supposed to put up with this on a daily basis? He knew what my beliefs were when we met, and he said he was fine with that. (His previous girlfriend was Wiccan to some extent). But when it came time to meet his mother, he urged me not to tell her what I believed, as she was a highly religious woman. Well ok, some people are like that, so I understood and played along. I even went to his church with him, learned about his beliefs and where they come from, etc. After we married, suddenly he changed into this whole other person. Now, since I am unemployed at the moment, I am expected to be the perfect little housewife. I'm not used to taking care of other people, so it's a lot to get used to, but I manage. Only he has also added to the list that if I am not going to share his beliefs, I should remain quiet about my own, and keep them to myself. It's gotten to the point now where if he catches me doing research into different things, or talking to people about my beliefs, I have to claim it's for the story I've been writing. To some extent, I guess it is, so it's not really lying. I just wish he could be as understanding and supportive as he expects me to be. I still attend his holiday feasts and such with him, even though I don't go to church with him on a weekly basis, and I help him maintain a church website. We have somewhat intelligent discussions about his beliefs, but when ever I start to talk about what I believe, it's always "that's silly", or "how can people believe that?". Any further discussion or attempt to explain is always waved off because he has more important things to do. Now, I am not trying to offload my baggage here; I am using this as an example. I know, and have known, many people like this in my life - some of them I have even called my friends. I guess the reason I am bringing this up is, it kind of makes me wonder how people can put up with friends and loved ones who feel this way. I know my grandmother can be a bit stubborn about it, so we tend not to discuss religion. Does it have to be this way with all of them? My mother, on the other hand, is an incredibly understanding person. She not only accepts my beliefs, and supports me in them, but sometimes she asks me questions about them without being prompted, and seems genuinely interested in them. Unfortunately for me, she lives too far away to talk to just when ever I want. Seems that way with most people I know I could talk to. (Like you guys). Eventually, I think I might have to invent myself an imaginary friend. Either that, or move.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Feb 9, 2008 22:25:38 GMT -5
Today I realized that my husband is a hypocrite, and it made me think about how many people there are in the world just like him. They expect you to be tolerant of their non-mainstream beliefs, support them in their studies, and go to their religious holidays and feasts and such. Alright, I'm all for tolerance and acceptance, but life is a two-way street, is it not? So shouldn't I be able to expect that if I accept his beliefs and support him in them, he should do the same for me? Apparently, according to my husband, it doesn't work that way. He says he doesn't have to accept my beliefs, or support me in my studies, because my beliefs are 'stupid'. What's up with people who believe that? They spend all day whining that society doesn't accept them, and labels them a cult, but they do the exact same thing to others! I'm not normally one to get worked up over what other people think, but I mean, this is my husband. How am I supposed to put up with this on a daily basis? He knew what my beliefs were when we met, and he said he was fine with that. (His previous girlfriend was Wiccan to some extent). But when it came time to meet his mother, he urged me not to tell her what I believed, as she was a highly religious woman. Well ok, some people are like that, so I understood and played along. I even went to his church with him, learned about his beliefs and where they come from, etc. After we married, suddenly he changed into this whole other person. Now, since I am unemployed at the moment, I am expected to be the perfect little housewife. I'm not used to taking care of other people, so it's a lot to get used to, but I manage. Only he has also added to the list that if I am not going to share his beliefs, I should remain quiet about my own, and keep them to myself. It's gotten to the point now where if he catches me doing research into different things, or talking to people about my beliefs, I have to claim it's for the story I've been writing. To some extent, I guess it is, so it's not really lying. I just wish he could be as understanding and supportive as he expects me to be. I still attend his holiday feasts and such with him, even though I don't go to church with him on a weekly basis, and I help him maintain a church website. We have somewhat intelligent discussions about his beliefs, but when ever I start to talk about what I believe, it's always "that's silly", or "how can people believe that?". Any further discussion or attempt to explain is always waved off because he has more important things to do. Now, I am not trying to offload my baggage here; I am using this as an example. I know, and have known, many people like this in my life - some of them I have even called my friends. I guess the reason I am bringing this up is, it kind of makes me wonder how people can put up with friends and loved ones who feel this way. I know my grandmother can be a bit stubborn about it, so we tend not to discuss religion. Does it have to be this way with all of them? My mother, on the other hand, is an incredibly understanding person. She not only accepts my beliefs, and supports me in them, but sometimes she asks me questions about them without being prompted, and seems genuinely interested in them. Unfortunately for me, she lives too far away to talk to just when ever I want. Seems that way with most people I know I could talk to. (Like you guys). Eventually, I think I might have to invent myself an imaginary friend. Either that, or move. Or, you can just wander over here more often to talk...
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Post by stormcat on Feb 9, 2008 22:56:55 GMT -5
Welcome to the hypocritical husbands club! I thought you were one of the lucky ones, sorry. My husband attends no religious functions of any kind, yet he tried to strong arm me into going to Ash Wed. services. It was for the benefit of our son he said, except our son is 24! I've had to make a truce with him of sorts, he mocks me, my beliefs, and my psychic abilities. I ignore him and his BS. Don't think he hasn't outted me too! Just come and talk to the nice people here, build up your energy. Good Luck! >^..^<
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Chandra Vrika
Seeker
Blessed is the Lady of Thrones, She who is all, for the gifts she has given.
Posts: 15
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Post by Chandra Vrika on Feb 10, 2008 9:49:42 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy talking to you guys. Just sometimes you need a physical person to talk to near you who you can go get coffee with. You know? I think it likely frustrates me mostly because I can't stand people who will lie to you to get you to like them, and then when you find out who they really are you realize why they had to lie. Lol.
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Post by stormcat on Feb 16, 2008 1:02:51 GMT -5
Wish we could have coffee, I think we're a bit far apart...All I can say is I'm sorry bout the posers and liars. I'm pretty much as you read me, cranky, don't suffer fools very well, truthful as I can be. Lies never end, tell one you have to keep telling them to keep up the front. I'm careful bout revealing any of my beliefs, people can get ugly fast. I'm working on getting my children to accept me...>^-.-^<
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 22, 2008 15:45:51 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy talking to you guys. Just sometimes you need a physical person to talk to near you who you can go get coffee with. You know? I think it likely frustrates me mostly because I can't stand people who will lie to you to get you to like them, and then when you find out who they really are you realize why they had to lie. Lol. Wow - I'm sorry to hear that you're having such a time. I suppose it's something like the 'masks' thread you responded to, we each wear them to a greater or lesser extent I suppose. You might check out Witchvox for other Pagans in your area.
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