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Post by Senbecc on May 22, 2007 18:20:31 GMT -5
Firstly I would ask what is mysterious about it? Secondly I see allot of Neo-this and Neo-that being thrown around...If you ask me 1954 is pretty "neo" too. Lastly, it seems to me that "Wica" is the proper name used by Gardner, not "Wicca", and to my mind is every bit as eclectic as any tradition of Wicca on the market today.
Though I certainly don't agree with calling up strangers, if you mean to initiate girls, I suppose you'll certainly want a couple of guys. lol...
LoL, goodness...I just see so many who claim it to be some "Mystery tradition" from ancient Europe that I forget the possibility of it being oath bound. The only problem I have there is that according to the tradition all of it was supposed to be oath bound, and yet Gardner, Buckland, Valentine, the Farrers, and so many others have broken these oaths. Just seems strange to me is all.
Traditional Wica seems to my mind to be every bit as "Neo" by these standards. Gardner himself took traditions from so many sources, and watered them down rendering many unrecognizable by their original cultures. Ever ask a Buddhist, or Hindu how they feel about how Wica views Karma? I personally don't see this as organised any more than the Wiccans.
Well it seems difficult to me to base whether or not another is wrong in claiming the title of their religion when the founder used one word and the "neo's" use another...Don't you? And simply because it looks nicer? What gives someone the right to do that? How exactly does that work? I mean as an Irish Druid should I start spelling it "drooid" because I think it looks better?
Heh, he may have done an awesome job piecing it together, but his honesty, and his knowledge of history are so far off the wall and outside of the realm of reality its not even funny. Christianity as well isn't a religion that was intentionally leaked to the public. Now Wiccans (as opposed to Gardner's Wica) have began to create their own philosophies, they are built exactly as Gerald Gardner did. Seems to me that there are two names for two distinctly different religious philosophies.
(Posted here so I don't loose it and for disussion)
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Aislin
Seeker
She who walks on clouds of dreams, and dances in the rain
Posts: 22
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Post by Aislin on May 22, 2007 18:39:48 GMT -5
Well, the mystery i was taught by my mentor was. . . there is no mystery. It is. . . what it is. I really don't buy into the "oooh spooky mystery" types, as a matter of fact I actively laugh at them. Wicca is Neo. Almost all pagan paths as they stand now are neo something or other. I think people just like to attach the word to sound vaugely posh or 'mysterious' there's that word again. . .
very much agreed *nod*
Well historically, those who break taboo (in this case breaking of the oath) are either A: incredibly powerful and show that power by breaking the taboo and not being smited by some unforseen boogity-boogity. or B: silly and will eventually be smited by said boogity.
In all reality the way i see it is, the aforementioned people did not like something being done in that tradition, and thus broke away to form their own "Cool Kids Club" and as a way to stick it to the "No so Cool kids Club" had a go at their "secrets". Basically the same thing that happens on elementary school playgrounds (I worked as a mentor/big sister when i was in high school, and really I see the clubs that children make and the rules they come up with akin to pagan traditions lol
Agreed, the original Hindu view of karma is leaps and bounds different than that of Wicca/Paganism
I think that by attaching the "neo" to post-Gardner Wicca is a way for the followers of "traditional" wicca to use the "Older is better" argument. Its the "cool kids club" mentality I said earlier. It's not right but. . . people will be people.
I think this is along the same lines of spelling Magick, magic, majick and a frillion other ways. Does any spelling take preference over another? Not really.
Personally if it were me, I would use drooid ..... it reminds me of the Droids from starwars. . and well you just dont mess with them. hehe
Really, call yourself what you want. In the words of George Carlin in the bit, "Sun Worshiper", "Pick your superstition, and sit back and enjoy".
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Post by Senbecc on May 23, 2007 18:36:05 GMT -5
Well, the mystery i was taught by my mentor was. . . there is no mystery. It is. . . what it is. I really don't buy into the "oooh spooky mystery" types, as a matter of fact I actively laugh at them. Wicca is Neo. Almost all pagan paths as they stand now are neo something or other. I think people just like to attach the word to sound vaugely posh or 'mysterious' there's that word again. . . very much agreed *nod* Well historically, those who break taboo (in this case breaking of the oath) are either A: incredibly powerful and show that power by breaking the taboo and not being smited by some unforseen boogity-boogity. or B: silly and will eventually be smited by said boogity. In all reality the way i see it is, the aforementioned people did not like something being done in that tradition, and thus broke away to form their own "Cool Kids Club" and as a way to stick it to the "No so Cool kids Club" had a go at their "secrets". Basically the same thing that happens on elementary school playgrounds (I worked as a mentor/big sister when i was in high school, and really I see the clubs that children make and the rules they come up with akin to pagan traditions lol Agreed, the original Hindu view of karma is leaps and bounds different than that of Wicca/Paganism I think that by attaching the "neo" to post-Gardner Wicca is a way for the followers of "traditional" wicca to use the "Older is better" argument. Its the "cool kids club" mentality I said earlier. It's not right but. . . people will be people. I think this is along the same lines of spelling Magick, magic, majick and a frillion other ways. Does any spelling take preference over another? Not really. Personally if it were me, I would use drooid ..... it reminds me of the Droids from starwars. . and well you just dont mess with them. hehe Really, call yourself what you want. In the words of George Carlin in the bit, "Sun Worshiper", "Pick your superstition, and sit back and enjoy". I will say Neo or not I do in fact agree with their desire to keep it free of other influence. I agree because I see the same happening to my Irish and other Celtic ancestors every day by those who misinturprit and misrepresent what Irish spirituality is and isn't. However if you are going to keep it pure...Then by all means keep it pure! Wica is the name which was coined by Gardner NOT Wicca. I think this is important, if you're going to claim you're keeping one aspect pure then keep it all pure. To my mind here we have two different words...Two different pronunciations...Two distinctly different religions. I simply don't see the problems that some have.
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Post by KittyLane on May 23, 2007 19:16:32 GMT -5
Well, the mystery i was taught by my mentor was. . . there is no mystery. It is. . . what it is. I really don't buy into the "oooh spooky mystery" types, as a matter of fact I actively laugh at them. Wicca is Neo. Almost all pagan paths as they stand now are neo something or other. I think people just like to attach the word to sound vaugely posh or 'mysterious' there's that word again. . . very much agreed *nod* Well historically, those who break taboo (in this case breaking of the oath) are either A: incredibly powerful and show that power by breaking the taboo and not being smited by some unforseen boogity-boogity. or B: silly and will eventually be smited by said boogity. In all reality the way i see it is, the aforementioned people did not like something being done in that tradition, and thus broke away to form their own "Cool Kids Club" and as a way to stick it to the "No so Cool kids Club" had a go at their "secrets". Basically the same thing that happens on elementary school playgrounds (I worked as a mentor/big sister when i was in high school, and really I see the clubs that children make and the rules they come up with akin to pagan traditions lol Agreed, the original Hindu view of karma is leaps and bounds different than that of Wicca/Paganism I think that by attaching the "neo" to post-Gardner Wicca is a way for the followers of "traditional" wicca to use the "Older is better" argument. Its the "cool kids club" mentality I said earlier. It's not right but. . . people will be people. I think this is along the same lines of spelling Magick, magic, majick and a frillion other ways. Does any spelling take preference over another? Not really. Personally if it were me, I would use drooid ..... it reminds me of the Droids from starwars. . and well you just dont mess with them. hehe Really, call yourself what you want. In the words of George Carlin in the bit, "Sun Worshiper", "Pick your superstition, and sit back and enjoy". I will say Neo or not I do in fact agree with their desire to keep it free of other influence. I agree because I see the same happening to my Irish and other Celtic ancestors every day by those who misinturprit and misrepresent what Irish spirituality is and isn't. However if you are going to keep it pure...Then by all means keep it pure! Wica is the name which was coined by Gardner NOT Wicca. I think this is important, if you're going to claim you're keeping one aspect pure then keep it all pure. To my mind here we have two different words...Two different pronunciations...Two distinctly different religions. I simply don't see the problems that some have. I see you have been reading the book, "Witchcraft Today"......LOL
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Post by tahlia on May 24, 2007 12:42:51 GMT -5
The way I understand it is that Gardner's religion, his version of witchcraft, was eventually called Wicca to distingish it from the other witchcraft traditions that started making themselves known through the years after the laws were repealed. Originally it was simply witchcraft. Gardner had used the word wica at some point and so that was what was chosen. I imagine the other C was added because the original meaning of the word wica is gender specific.
Yes the 1950's is pretty "neo" and I really wish that all these people in the world who practice using the outer court materials available, and whatever mish-mash they may add to it, (and I'm in no way saying thats a bad thing) would just use the word "witch" and call it good. Why is there such a strong desire in people to tie themselves to a religion that they are not officially a part of? I personally don't like the whole "oath-bound" "mystery" aspect of Wicca. But regardless of if any of us like it or think it's fair or whatever, that's what Wicca is. Bitching about it, or calling yourself wicca regardless, wont change it any. I'm pretty sure that all the initiated Wiccans in the world aren't sitting out there reading everything on the net going "oh no! People are upset that we wont share our secrets. We should completely change the nature and structure of our religion to accomodate them all." lol
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Post by Senbecc on May 24, 2007 16:52:01 GMT -5
The way I understand it is that Gardner's religion, his version of witchcraft, was eventually called Wicca to distingish it from the other witchcraft traditions that started making themselves known through the years after the laws were repealed. Originally it was simply witchcraft. Gardner had used the word wica at some point and so that was what was chosen. I imagine the other C was added because the original meaning of the word wica is gender specific. Well no, "Wicca" is the word that is the word that is Gender specific, not "Wica". Wicca is the O.E. term to denote a Male practitioner of Sorcery. "Wicce" is the term that denotes a female practitioner of the same. As well it is debated hat Wicca and Wicce take meaning in "Wise" which I won't speculate on. However I will provide some references here for others to follow up on that research. dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=1213en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca(Though I admittedly don't see the 'Site anyone can edit' as a viable source) entheogen.netfirms.com/wiccan/wicca454/what_is_wicca.htmlOthers can be supplied as well if you're interested. However though, the original term used by Gardner was indeed "Wica" Now whether it was a misspelling or what ever a initiate from Britain has informed me that the reason for the change is cloudy, and something few if any of the initiates know the "why" of. Now my question would be, why would you hold to it if it isn't the original belief I suppose? The problem I have here is that "Witch" isn't a religion. It is a practice of a specific cultural type of magic. Can one blend other types of magic with it? I would imagine so, however to my mind "Witch" is the philosophy around which the religion of "Wicca" is based. Here is a bit I wrote in response to that BTW I've been speaking to on the matter, perhaps that response will make sense here as well: Well that's true. A philosophy, or spirituality needs to evolve. Aside from self initiation (lol which tends to get me in trouble) Buckland also condoned creating new Traditions of Wicca/Wica didn't he? I've read several sources that state that, so couldn't it be argued that BTW is the original Tradition from which all these others flow. Now bare with me here OK? I'm not saying that we should take every Vampire/Werewolf/Wiccan/Satanist/Shaman/Druid spouting off about how Celtic and ancient Wicca is, that comes down the street seriously. It just seems to me that there are "Wiccans" (i.e. Celtic Wicca, Faery Wicca, Dianic, Norse, Shakti, or what ever) who base their practice SERIOUSLY after what Gardner, Buckland, Valentine, etc. put fourth to the public and in no uncertain terms told them the name or the religion they were working to teach. Seldom, to my mind are many of these people ever told that that can't be Wica/Wicca without a Wicca of the opposite sex to initiate them, and even if they are they have initiates like Buckland telling them it is possible for them to accomplish it. So they work for years in some cases to *earn* the title of Wicca/Wiccan. I am someone who has worked for years in dedication and practice to Irish ways to earn the knowledge of my ancestor's. I know what an accomplishment a title can be, what pride one takes it 17 years of practice of Irish ways. I guess I simply feel that people like those I've outlined have been terribly cheated, aside from being teased with a destination to a goal or path. Now I'll be the first to admit that there's not much in a name, in fact I don't think it's the name at all, but the focus of a particular religion. The tenants remain the same, the lunar goddess, sun god, three fold "Karma" "an it harm none" and the rest. It just seems unfair to those who have seriously sought out this path...More often than not I think they just feel lied to?
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mannun
Seeker
www.witchsmark.com
Posts: 12
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Post by mannun on Apr 24, 2008 8:57:55 GMT -5
It is what it is as far as Traditional Practices go, Gardnerian for instance, and no one is denied the experience to begin training as a Traditional. So for these people that get all in a tizzy about Oath Bound traditions not sharing secrets and what not.... then go seek out an Oathbound Tradition and find out for yourself, otherwise don't bother getting your feathers ruffled. As far as Mystery Tradition goes... there have been and still are Mystery Schools for thousands of years dating all the way back to the ancient Greeks, Egyptians and beyond. Gardnerianism is simply a modern day Mystery School. As far as the Mystery, I think alot of people are confusing what our definition of a Mystery is. It's not about secrets and what not, Mysteries are things that everyone experiences in life, the difference is we are trained to realise them, embrace them and learn from them as they occur where others may run from them and never really get the message therefore being condemned to repeat them in lives to come until otherwise understood.
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