shaman Gatherings

[Rasp The Apprentice]

Hello As being new here i hesitate to ask this but .. Well What is everyones opinions on the use of Stropharia Cubensis, Conocybe, Panaeolus or Copelandia. in Ritual shamanistic Out of body Gatherings? In my opinion there is much to be learned from the early Meso American Shaman. going back to at least 4500 BE.I have studied these ways for many years and with the help from R. Gorden Wasson and Albert Hofmann i was able to get enugh information for myself and 2 very close Pagan friends on the road to some realy great studies.

Consider if you will, it is not often that something so fragile and
culture bound as a religious mystery can rise from the ashes of
near extinction. Even the natural life of a religious mystery ends
finally in the erosion of connection to the mysterious driving power
of some archetype. But few religious mysteries exist long enugh to
experience this decadence. Most are suppressed by dominant orthodoxies already in place or imported through conquest. This latter situation is an apt description of the status of the Mushroom religion of Meso-America at the time of the spanish conquest.
In the case of Meso-American mushroom use,A ancient Shamanic religion/ "Of which we know very little" confronted Spanish Catholicism whos relitively advanced technology meant almost complete subjugation of the people,complete breakdown of the ancient gnosis. Practitioners of the mushroom cult were burned as "Heretics". The Indians' insistence on the mushroom as the "Flesh of the Gods" must have particularly excited the heretic hunters and perhaps left them a little uneasy.as they went about their bloody business. After all," Flesh of The Gods" was a claim explicitly made for the christian Eucharist, yet is not nearly so effective a visionary vehicle as the persecuted Mushroom.
The use of the mushroom retreated to the remote mountainous regions of Spanish Mexico. The ritual itself was all but lost under a layer of christainized associations. the mushrooms were now called "Jesus" or "Saint Peter" the old names of the planetary Gods of the Myans, forgotten. And the centuries pass........

There are a "Few" Good books on the Ritual and the early meso american Shamanistic ways avalible. There a also Great works by Wasson and Hofmann. they toured Mexico and lived with the Tribes and studied these rituals. I would love some day to go there and do so myself.

I would Love to share past experiances and many visions with you about the rituals ive attended but do not wish to post them here publicly. You see the sad thing is that i pursue this as a part of my religion, for that i can be thrown into jail and persecuted by a society that refuses to acept my religious belives.

Please, dont think for a moment i worship a Mushroom. i worship a God and Goddess. this is but a small part of my journey in the constant vigil to gain the knowage the acients once knew well and held so sacred.

Okkkkk i realy tend to be a little "shall we say" Long winded. i realy just wanted some feedback from you all.
Please feel free to post as you like i am eager to hear what all you have to say....
....... Rasp the apprentice.....

[Senbecc]

Rasp said:

Hello As being new here i hesitate to ask this but .. Well What is everyones opinions on the use of Stropharia Cubensis, Conocybe, Panaeolus or Copelandia. in Ritual shamanistic Out of body Gatherings? In my opinion there is much to be learned from the early Meso American Shaman. going back to at least 4500 BE.I have studied these ways for many years and with the help from R. Gorden Wasson and Albert Hofmann i was able to get enugh information for myself and 2 very close Pagan friends on the road to some realy great studies.

Consider if you will, it is not often that something so fragile and
culture bound as a religious mystery can rise from the ashes of
near extinction. Even the natural life of a religious mystery ends
finally in the erosion of connection to the mysterious driving power
of some archetype. But few religious mysteries exist long enugh to
experience this decadence. Most are suppressed by dominant orthodoxies already in place or imported through conquest. This latter situation is an apt description of the status of the Mushroom religion of Meso-America at the time of the spanish conquest.
In the case of Meso-American mushroom use,A ancient Shamanic religion/ "Of which we know very little" confronted Spanish Catholicism whos relitively advanced technology meant almost complete subjugation of the people,complete breakdown of the ancient gnosis. Practitioners of the mushroom cult were burned as "Heretics". The Indians' insistence on the mushroom as the "Flesh of the Gods" must have particularly excited the heretic hunters and perhaps left them a little uneasy.as they went about their bloody business. After all," Flesh of The Gods" was a claim explicitly made for the christian Eucharist, yet is not nearly so effective a visionary vehicle as the persecuted Mushroom.
The use of the mushroom retreated to the remote mountainous regions of Spanish Mexico. The ritual itself was all but lost under a layer of christainized associations. the mushrooms were now called "Jesus" or "Saint Peter" the old names of the planetary Gods of the Myans, forgotten. And the centuries pass........

There are a "Few" Good books on the Ritual and the early meso american Shamanistic ways avalible. There a also Great works by Wasson and Hofmann. they toured Mexico and lived with the Tribes and studied these rituals. I would love some day to go there and do so myself.

I would Love to share past experiances and many visions with you about the rituals ive attended but do not wish to post them here publicly. You see the sad thing is that i pursue this as a part of my religion, for that i can be thrown into jail and persecuted by a society that refuses to acept my religious belives.

Please, dont think for a moment i worship a Mushroom. i worship a God and Goddess. this is but a small part of my journey in the constant vigil to gain the knowage the acients once knew well and held so sacred.

Okkkkk i realy tend to be a little "shall we say" Long winded. i realy just wanted some feedback from you all.
Please feel free to post as you like i am eager to hear what all you have to say....
....... Rasp the apprentice.....

Well firstly, I don't feel any drug, mushroom or otherwise is necessary to experience a Shamanistic journey of any kind, out of body or otherwise. Though I have used such things in the past, I have since found that the intent and the proper frame of mind are plenty.

However, the Mushroom has been used by many western Native cultures it seems to me, not just the Mayans, though I don't know if they had any sort of cult put to it. The Souix, Navaho, and undoubtedly others, and I honestly don't see the origin of religion being solely placed on the Mushroom to tell the truth as Terrence McKenna seems to be trying to discover.

Lastly, if you want to dishonor yourself, and the gods you claim by loading up on illegal drugs then claiming in the name of religion that is of course your perogitive...But know that it won't be preached on these boards.

[Rasp The Apprentice]

Its ok that is exactly the kind of reply i figured i would get.
I came to these forums seeking open minded people willing to share experiences and thoughts . but instead found this. so sad.
I am not preaching anything... I would like to warn you that the comment about dishonoring the Gods and myself was not needed.

My personal feelings are this.. Be careful where thee tread sir, you may find someday that your rash thinking or words will get you in to deep for your liking. (not a threat just imparting wisdom)

I will go elsewhere to Talk about "My" religion Because "My" God and Goddess are not Christan nor do they bow to Christan Laws Nor do I.

thank you sir... Good Day

[Senbecc]

Rasp said:

Its ok that is exactly the kind of reply i figured i would get.
I came to these forums seeking open minded people willing to share experiences and thoughts . but instead found this. so sad.
I am not preaching anything... I would like to warn you that the comment about dishonoring the Gods and myself was not needed.

My personal feelings are this.. Be careful where thee tread sir, you may find someday that your rash thinking or words will get you in to deep for your liking. (not a threat just imparting wisdom)

I will go elsewhere to Talk about "My" religion Because "My" God and Goddess are not Christan nor do they bow to Christan Laws Nor do I.

thank you sir... Good Day

Honor is sought through LAW skill, and order. If you are going to break the law then you dishonor not only yourself, but the gods you claim. You are of course free to come and go as you please, but the rule is that discussing the need for drugs in Shamanic ritual in present day life will not be tolerated.

Thank you

Admin.

[Rasp The Apprentice]

Hey , sorry bout that last post,you upset me a little with some of your remarks here. I wanted to e-mail you directly but i cant find your mail here or on the rapid city Wicca Meeting boards where you posted this link.

[Senbecc]

Rasp said:

Hey , sorry bout that last post,you upset me a little with some of your remarks here. I wanted to e-mail you directly but i cant find your mail here or on the rapid city Wicca Meeting boards where you posted this link.

So your from here in Rapid City then? Know that I am in no way against discussing the history of the use of drugs in a ritual setting, but there are kids on this board who probably have a hard enough time saying no to such things with out the adults saying they are necessary, or implying that they are.

I can be reached via e-mail here, or at [e-mail].

[Rasp The Apprentice]

Who's Laws? Tell me, who's laws. NOT the laws of my People. i do realize Laws exist but they most certainly are not my peoples/ Religions Or my Gods Laws. Tell me this if you Twist and change your religious views and practices to accommodate some Laws imposed upon you by some government that took all you land and killed Most of you people. I would say HUrahhh conformist. But i sir Honer My Gods by Not conforming I sir have been to Sweats and visual Gatherings More than 500 times in the 21 years spent on my Reservation. thats what they call our land now "Reservation" Ha Ha . I have been practicing this "NOT JUST EATING MUSHROOMS" Religion for 38 years sir. Think i know a thing or 2 about it? and would like to share and help spread Wisdom....NOT closed minded thinking. If you would have read my first post carefully i said it is a small part of my religious beliefs.

Also these are YOUR words from the link on the Rapid city Wicca site, PaganMystics is a site which strives to be open to any system of beliefs, we are a friendly fun loving community with a common goal...Helping each other gain knowledge and wisdom .

So at the very least stay true to your words. Thank you .....

[Senbecc]

Rasp said:

Who's Laws? Tell me, who's laws. NOT the laws of my People. i do realize Laws exist but they most certainly are not my peoples/ Religions Or my Gods Laws. Tell me this if you Twist and change your religious views and practices to accommodate some Laws imposed upon you by some government that took all you land and killed Most of you people. I would say HUrahhh conformist. But i sir Honer My Gods by Not conforming I sir have been to Sweats and visual Gatherings More than 500 times in the 21 years spent on my Reservation. thats what they call our land now "Reservation" Ha Ha . I have been practicing this "NOT JUST EATING MUSHROOMS" Religion for 38 years sir. Think i know a thing or 2 about it? and would like to share and help spread Wisdom....NOT closed minded thinking. If you would have read my first post carefully i said it is a small part of my religious beliefs.

Also these are YOUR words from the link on the Rapid city Wicca site, PaganMystics is a site which strives to be open to any system of beliefs, we are a friendly fun loving community with a common goal...Helping each other gain knowledge and wisdom .

So at the very least stay true to your words. Thank you .....

You are Lakota then?...You are as bound by the law and honor as anyone else, whether you realize it or not.

We do strive to be open, but preaching the need for drugs is against the LAW...If you'd like to post your thoughts here you are more than welcome to do so. I don't feel that asking you to not speak of the need for drugs on our forum is to much to ask...The history is fine...However your use of them will not be posted here...Do you understand that if I allow that our boards could be deleted? I'm not going to let you do that.

[Senbecc]

Nor will I say it again.....

[Rasp The Apprentice]

Check yer E-mail..... Quinault i am from the village of Taholah in Western Washington

[Senbecc]

Rasp said:

Check yer E-mail..... Quinault i am from the village of Taholah in Western Washington

I have answered, I appreciate your understanding.

[moonwind333]

Fasting and the sweat lodge can bring about the same results, at least in my experience.

[bran_sinnach]

Rasp said:

Who's Laws? Tell me, who's laws. NOT the laws of my People. i do realize Laws exist but they most certainly are not my peoples/ Religions Or my Gods Laws. Tell me this if you Twist and change your religious views and practices to accommodate some Laws imposed upon you by some government that took all you land and killed Most of you people. I would say HUrahhh conformist. But i sir Honer My Gods by Not conforming.

Actually, the Christians did take all of our land and they did kill or attempt to kill anyone who practiced Druidism, but that does not give me the right to disregard the laws that they might make today just because they are not written by 'my people'. And yes, I do have to make some changes to the ways in which I worship to accomodate these laws. For instance, some rituals or ways in which I vernerate my goddess call for libations of alcohol , which I of course can not purchase due to the fact that I am under 21. Do I try to break 'their' laws by trying to go out and bootleg some liquor for the ritual? No, I do not, I merely find a suitable substitute for it instead (as others here have stated can be used in the place of these mushrooms). I think that any being as wise as a God or Goddess can forgive a few such oversights if they can not(and should not) be avoided. And if changing my beliefs a bit so that some 19 year old kid cant just waltz into a store and get good and liquored up so he can wreck his car and get himself killed makes me a conformist, well then a conformist I will be. And, no offense sir, but if you can not find any way to be in touch with your deities without these mushrooms, especially when you say they are a small part, so that some crazy kids cant just get ahold of these whenever they want and use them for less noble reasons than you so that they can ruin their lives, then you need to take a serious look at yourself and your practices. Because if the gods, any gods, cant overlook trivial things like these, white man or Christians laws or not, to save even a single persons life, then in my opinion sir, they would not be worth worshipping. And on a final note, sir, I take offense to the way you have treated, disrespected, Senbecc and all of us here on this board with your attitude. I dont think there is a single person here who would agree that Senbecc has not delivered on his promise of "a site which strives to be open to any system of beliefs" or "a friendly fun loving community with a common goal...[to help] each other gain knowledge and wisdom." He is a great man who has graciously done a great service for all of us here, and the only one who used rash words in this thread was you sir. When you insult this good man, you insult all of us, especially when he is only trying to follow the laws that will be applied to him regardless of his race, religion, or ideas, and by doing what he feels is the best thing for everyone here. If you do not like it, or do not feel you can express what you want to here, then you are free to find another place more accepting to what you have to share- but that in no way gives you permission to disrespect Senbecc, what he has done for all of us here with this board, and all of us. And that, sirs and madames, is my 2 and a half cents.*chuckles*Maybe this should have gone in the rant section?

[shaamansu]

bransinnach said:

Rasp said:

Who's Laws? Tell me, who's laws. NOT the laws of my People. i do realize Laws exist but they most certainly are not my peoples/ Religions Or my Gods Laws. Tell me this if you Twist and change your religious views and practices to accommodate some Laws imposed upon you by some government that took all you land and killed Most of you people. I would say HUrahhh conformist. But i sir Honer My Gods by Not conforming.

Actually, the Christians did take all of our land and they did kill or attempt to kill anyone who practiced Druidism, but that does not give me the right to disregard the laws that they might make today just because they are not written by 'my people'. And yes, I do have to make some changes to the ways in which I worship to accomodate these laws. For instance, some rituals or ways in which I vernerate my goddess call for libations of alcohol , which I of course can not purchase due to the fact that I am under 21. Do I try to break 'their' laws by trying to go out and bootleg some liquor for the ritual? No, I do not, I merely find a suitable substitute for it instead (as others here have stated can be used in the place of these mushrooms). I think that any being as wise as a God or Goddess can forgive a few such oversights if they can not(and should not) be avoided. And if changing my beliefs a bit so that some 19 year old kid cant just waltz into a store and get good and liquored up so he can wreck his car and get himself killed makes me a conformist, well then a conformist I will be. And, no offense sir, but if you can not find any way to be in touch with your deities without these mushrooms, especially when you say they are a small part, so that some crazy kids cant just get ahold of these whenever they want and use them for less noble reasons than you so that they can ruin their lives, then you need to take a serious look at yourself and your practices. Because if the gods, any gods, cant overlook trivial things like these, white man or Christians laws or not, to save even a single persons life, then in my opinion sir, they would not be worth worshipping. And on a final note, sir, I take offense to the way you have treated, disrespected, Senbecc and all of us here on this board with your attitude. I dont think there is a single person here who would agree that Senbecc has not delivered on his promise of "a site which strives to be open to any system of beliefs" or "a friendly fun loving community with a common goal...[to help] each other gain knowledge and wisdom." He is a great man who has graciously done a great service for all of us here, and the only one who used rash words in this thread was you sir. When you insult this good man, you insult all of us, especially when he is only trying to follow the laws that will be applied to him regardless of his race, religion, or ideas, and by doing what he feels is the best thing for everyone here. If you do not like it, or do not feel you can express what you want to here, then you are free to find another place more accepting to what you have to share- but that in no way gives you permission to disrespect Senbecc, what he has done for all of us here with this board, and all of us. And that, sirs and madames, is my 2 and a half cents.*chuckles*Maybe this should have gone in the rant section?

As our Shaman paths indicate, we need to keep the balance. By trying to pick arguments with each other, we are going against our paths...or..at least I would be going against mine and my beliefsl

Blessings of Peace, Love, Respect and Honor be with you.

[wren]

I suffer from MS and it has been indicated that smoking marijuana may help ease my pain. This would also be illegal. I have two pre-teen children, taught to say no to all illegal drugs and to mis-using drugs of any kind, legal or otherwise. Do I smoke pot to ease my pain and tell them that I am above the law of the land? Or, do I seek to change what may be a bad law instead? In fact, I discussed this very point with them, asking for their opinions and HONORING their feelings that I forgo this drug use. Which is the better lesson, for them or me?

I have found, through meditation, the first pain relief I have ever known, with nothing more than the assistance of the Deities. They needed no assistance in lifting me up and I needed none to turn myself over to Them. We could also offer human sacrifice if our ancestors believed in it but we do not. There is TRUTH beyond such practices and it is this we should honor.