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Post by tahlia on May 31, 2007 15:01:58 GMT -5
That's very interesting stuff.
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Post by tahlia on May 31, 2007 15:36:13 GMT -5
I doubt it. I'm no more "tolerant" than anyone else. However, my irritation is reserved for those people who actually reflect badly on me. That is why I tend to be "hard" on my peers under the Pagan Umbrella and more or less ignore those who aren't. I could care less what Christians say, do, or think. I just don't think their opinion of my beliefs matters, so how can I get upset about it? Again, I'd say what you are describing is all well and good, but utterly worthless because it is subjective. Human beings always see disagreement as "preaching." They assume someone who comes to a different conclusion just isn't listening. That is sometimes true, but I have found more often than not, that people who disagree with you sometimes are listening, they do understand your arguments, they just have come to a different conclusion. This comes up all the time with Christian-Bashing. So many of my peers lament, "If only they would listen to the fact we don't worship their devil. We tell them time and time again and they keep repeating that lie!" Therein lies the problem. The Christians are listening to us. They just disagree. Their way of seeing the universe states we do worship their devil, although without our own knowledge. It is we, Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens, that do not listen. We continue to shout back at them and try to explain we don't worship the devil. If we were listening we would understand why it is useless to argue because their worldview is mutually exclusive from our own. I don't get upset by what they think of me or my beliefs. I do find myself bothered by them intruding in my personal space, such as showing up on my doorstep. I don't even like my friends to show up unannounced, of course I'm gonna be irritated by strangers doing it just to "enlighten" me with their own beliefs. I understand that their beliefs tell them to spread the word. I can respect that. I think that if I politely tell them "no thank you I already have my own set of beliefs and they work for me" that should really be the end of it. I don't think they have the right to harass people just because their beliefs tell them I'm going to hell. They offered, they did their job, they shouldn't come back next week and shove more flyers at me or threaten me with eternal damnation ya know? That's just plain rude. I agree to an extent that it is a waste of breath to try to convince christians that we are not devil worshippers. Regardless of wether they think we do it knowingly or that we are being decieved, they will continue to believe it. If they ask, I will share my beliefs, and let them make of it what they will. I'm not about to beat my head against a wall trying to convince them. That would be crazy.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on May 31, 2007 15:52:17 GMT -5
I don't get upset by what they think of me or my beliefs. I do find myself bothered by them intruding in my personal space, such as showing up on my doorstep. I don't even like my friends to show up unannounced, of course I'm gonna be irritated by strangers doing it just to "enlighten" me with their own beliefs. There we are in agreement. I don't like my personal space intruded upon either. However, those trying to enlighten me don't bother me anymore than those trying to sell me magazine subscriptions. In fact, at least those trying to enlighten me are doing so in the sincere belief they are doing me a favor rather than trying to screw me out of coin. It is rude, but you are wrong about one thing. They do have that right. They are perfectly entitled to make utter jerks of themselves and tell us they think we are going to hell. They can shovel flyers at us so much so that we could heat a house using a wood-burning furnace. It is obnoxious and rude, but it is also what keeps our country going. It is what allows you and I, as Wiccans or Pagans or Heathens to speak our minds and worship as we please. I'd much rather have my freedom with a side of jerk than the alternative. We aren't in disagreement about how rude it is, but it is the the price we pay for our own 1st Amendment rights. You are even nicer than me. Whether or not I share anything about myself depends entirely on whether or not I feel the person deserves my knowledge, whether I like them, and what is in it for me.
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Post by tahlia on May 31, 2007 15:58:02 GMT -5
I don't get upset by what they think of me or my beliefs. I do find myself bothered by them intruding in my personal space, such as showing up on my doorstep. I don't even like my friends to show up unannounced, of course I'm gonna be irritated by strangers doing it just to "enlighten" me with their own beliefs. There we are in agreement. I don't like my personal space intruded upon either. However, those trying to enlighten me don't bother me anymore than those trying to sell me magazine subscriptions. In fact, at least those trying to enlighten me are doing so in the sincere belief they are doing me a favor rather than trying to screw me out of coin. It is rude, but you are wrong about one thing. They do have that right. They are perfectly entitled to make utter jerks of themselves and tell us they think we are going to hell. They can shovel flyers at us so much so that we could heat a house using a wood-burning furnace. It is obnoxious and rude, but it is also what keeps our country going. It is what allows you and I, as Wiccans or Pagans or Heathens to speak our minds and worship as we please. I'd much rather have my freedom with a side of jerk than the alternative. We aren't in disagreement about how rude it is, but it is the the price we pay for our own 1st Amendment rights. You are even nicer than me. Whether or not I share anything about myself depends entirely on whether or not I feel the person deserves my knowledge, whether I like them, and what is in it for me. Not sure about the nicer part.... Yes by law it is their right....but good gods it's rude. You are right though. It's a small price to pay for the freedoms we enjoy.
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Post by Senbecc on May 31, 2007 23:16:13 GMT -5
Wait...Isn't ignorance what drives these conflicts in the first place? Also at what point do we stop saying it's all the Christians being annoying and pick up some of the slack ourselves?
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 31, 2007 23:35:38 GMT -5
Wait...Isn't ignorance what drives these conflicts in the first place? Also at what point do we stop saying it's all the Christians being annoying and pick up some of the slack ourselves? That's it exactly.. Ignorance and Fear of what people don't know and don't understand.. There's no reason to be pissed off or annoyed by Christians.... You can politely let them know that you are not interested and walk away from them... Or, you can share with them and attempt to educate them about what your beliefs are.. Either way, it's a choice that we make....
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 1, 2007 7:53:38 GMT -5
Wait...Isn't ignorance what drives these conflicts in the first place? No, it isn't. That is a nice, politically correct thought but that doesn't make it true. There is that assumption again, that if they just listened to us and were better educated they would understand the "truth," our truth. They would set aside their foolish faith which tells them their way is the only right way and be tolerant and loving. There are lots of educated Christians. In fact, some of the best educated people in the world are Christians. Some of the greatests philosophers, scientists, authors, and so on have been Christians. We need to get over this arrogant notion that we are better educated than them and that is why "we" understand and they do not. I've met a lot of pig-ignorant Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens. Ignorance is not the cause of most of the worlds problems. Most trouble is born of limited resources and the natural sociological impulses of human beings. You cannot "educated" that out of people on the whole. That is why, regardless of ethnicity, faith, culture, and so on we have wars, violence, and horror mixed in with our great achievements. It is a mixed bag, and was always ment to be so.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 1, 2007 8:00:10 GMT -5
That's it exactly.. Ignorance and Fear of what people don't know and don't understand.. I already commented on this but it bears repeating. What if they do understand? Isn't it arrogant on our part to assume all these problems are born of "their" misunderstanding? Isn't it possible that some of them understand our arguments fine but disagree/dislike us anyway? Here we agree completely. This is what I do, if I say anything them at all as I walk away. We can, but ultimately it is a waste of time.
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briar~rose
Seeker
I'm Queenie Lala's personal Jester.
Posts: 8
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Post by briar~rose on Jun 1, 2007 10:59:50 GMT -5
Wait...Isn't ignorance what drives these conflicts in the first place? Also at what point do we stop saying it's all the Christians being annoying and pick up some of the slack ourselves? See this is what I want to know...... Why is it that it's allways their fault. Why aren't we to blame??? There are things we could do too to help this situation but we refuse and turn our head the other way. And pretend that we're innocent and that they're big bullies who'll never let us be us. Mabye if we didn't hide all the time than they wouldn't be afraid of us. And if we didn't get pissed over the fact that they're only doing what their god tells them to by trying to save our souls!
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 1, 2007 12:05:19 GMT -5
See this is what I want to know...... Why is it that it's allways their fault. Why aren't we to blame??? There are things we could do too to help this situation but we refuse and turn our head the other way. And pretend that we're innocent and that they're big bullies who'll never let us be us. Why is it always "their" fault? I would suggest because nobody likes to admit they are (or might be) in the wrong. It is far easier to build one self up by tearing others down. I have found Wiccans, Pagans, and Heathens to be no different than anyone else in this area. Of course we SEEM more reasonable, tolerant, and educated to ourselves. Everyone sees themselves that way. Here we disagree. I've never been a fan of this notion that we need to come out and try to educate others, reveal ourselves, and forment an understanding that will dispel their fear. It would be nice if it worked that way but it doesn't. Look to history, as far back as we record it. The lesson is that when two (or more) mutually exclusive world views collide, there is conflict until one rises dominant. That is the way of things. Humans don't like to admit it but we follow Mother Nature's rules of order. Mother Nature is a harsh mistress.
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 1, 2007 12:24:44 GMT -5
No, it isn't. That is a nice, politically correct thought but that doesn't make it true. There is that assumption again, that if they just listened to us and were better educated they would understand the "truth," our truth. They would set aside their foolish faith which tells them their way is the only right way and be tolerant and loving. To my mind there is nothing "nice" at all about being ignorant, willfully or otherwise. The only assumptions I can honestly say I've seen here is that Christians refuse to listen, I know for a fact that isn't accurate, it all comes down to how the issue is addressed, the second becomes that their faith is "foolish" which might be some of the problem you're having with the latter. They listen to me for a very simple reason, I listen to them. All I ask in return for knowledge is knowledge. Equal compensation under Brehon law. It is simple and it's fair, they feel theirs is the "only right way" simply because they have not been made to understand that there are several angles by which a person can view a tree. And nine times out of ten these aren't the Christians being addressed by this particular thread. It is instead those fundamentalist groups like Tahlia's "Jack Chick" who are the problem, the arrogance to my mind seems to be the belief that they're better educated than we are and for this reason we should throw up our proverbial hands and give up all together. Perhaps that works for some, but isn't my style. Yes, I would concede that there are "pig-ignorant Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens" however the same holds true on the other side of the fence as well. The problem all around it would seem to me is that one side is any better or worse than the other, when the only real difference when all is said and done are the angles by which we view "Deity". Still I would argue this to be ignorance, be it racial ignorance, sociological ignorance, or ignorance in the fact that if the world is to survive as is, i.e. every country in the world having contact with every other, then to my mind it will become necessary to understand each other's strengths and weaknesses and help each other compensate, ethnicity, faith, and culture are simply excuses, and by the end of the day are examples of human ignorance, meant to be so perhaps though just as likely that it is something we're "meant" to overcome.
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 1, 2007 12:32:04 GMT -5
Well it seems to me Modern Irish culture in a hybrid between Christian and Pagan views, while they refer to themselves as Christian, it is undoubtedly the "Celtic Church" and seems to be proof that cultures can work together if they try.
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 1, 2007 12:33:54 GMT -5
It seems important further to point out that the point of the original post was to state that both sides are being ignorant, not just just them.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on Jun 1, 2007 13:19:55 GMT -5
To my mind there is nothing "nice" at all about being ignorant, willfully or otherwise. The only assumptions I can honestly say I've seen here is that Christians refuse to listen, I know for a fact that isn't accurate, it all comes down to how the issue is addressed, the second becomes that their faith is "foolish" which might be some of the problem you're having with the latter. They listen to me for a very simple reason, I listen to them. All I ask in return for knowledge is knowledge. Equal compensation under Brehon law. It is simple and it's fair, they feel theirs is the "only right way" simply because they have not been made to understand that there are several angles by which a person can view a tree. You may have missed some of the context of my previous post. I don't have any problems with Christians, tolerant or intolerant. Like yourself, I listen to them and they listen to me. We are in large agreement here through most of this paragraph. I don't agree with the end though. While I sympathize with this notion (due to personal bias) that Christians feel they way they do simply because they have not yet been made to "understand" that there are other angles, I don't think that is the case. I think they know (after 2000 years) that there are other ways to look at things. I think they simply disagree with those angles, and choose their own. If they already understand, then you can't make them understand anymore. Yes, but therein lies another problem. Most of us understand it isn't Christians (on the whole) who are the issue. It is a few fringe minority groups and assinine individuals. However, we don't specify when we refer to them. We treat the term Christian like a dirty word or a racial epithet. It seems that we refuse to recognize them as individuals. You and I don't do that, but we are the minority. As to throwing up our hands and giving up, I don't believe we should do this because we are better educated. I have just come to realize that people must choose to learn and seek for themselves. The moment we go out of our way to try and guide them we are over the line. I wait till people come to me. It shouldn't be easy to find me. The worthy seek and adversity which causes some to fail weeds out those who are not. I hate the current trend of open inclusion because it swells our ranks with all sorts of misfits. If you open the amusement park to everyone... EVERYONE shows up. Yep there is equal measure of stupidity across all faiths and cultures. However, I think there are more differences than just how we view deity. It goes much deeper than that. This is a very nice thought. I, like you, hope it is possible. Pragmatism, however, makes me think better of it. I don't think that faiths, cultures, hate, violence, inclusive societies, exclusive societies, and so on are not just examples of human ignorance. They are examples of humanity in motion. Evolution teaches us that maladaptive practices tend to fade away, while adaptive ones flourish. If we judge humanity and its practices by these standards, we cannot say these things are ignorant or even deserve to fall to the wayside. They appear to have served us thus far. Malthus will have the last laugh when Mother Nature culls us, as she has before and always will. Nonetheless, our human practices (vile and sublime) will fortify those of us who survive and move forward. It is a sobering thought that it is our darker natures (as well as our light) which are just as important to our survival.
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Post by chiawana on Jun 2, 2007 10:35:52 GMT -5
I don't feel especially "at war" with Christians, but I do feel disgruntled with the fact that we are inundated day in and day out with their slant on everything, and when the media talks about religion it's almost always from the Christian perspective. There was a recent article in Newsweek about religion among the troops in Iraq. I searched in vain for any reference to Pagans, or even to faiths other than Christianity and found none. This blatant assumption that everyone in the military is Christian really annoyed me. We all know that there are lots of Pagans in our armed services; they have well-organized groups and meetings and support systems. To have this ignored (as well as other religions that I'm sure are represented in our military) is to me not only shoddy journalism, but playing right into the mainstream agenda of Christianizing everyone. It seems to be assumed that everyone in this country is Christian and that this perspective is relevant to all. This is the crux of what really gets my goat. It's less to do with individuals than the seemingly almost indoctrinational aspect of the media and our government to make us all think that Christians are not only dominant, but the veiled message that if you aren't Christian, then you aren't a real American.
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