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Post by Senbecc on May 20, 2007 14:45:56 GMT -5
Paul, do you know Sir Todd on myspace? Heh still think they'd accept anyone? I see what you're saying here lad but we have to consider the source of the fight too.
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Post by Senbecc on May 20, 2007 15:25:04 GMT -5
Further, this declaration of war is in no way shape or form the tribes way of saying we're better than you...This is their way of asking to be left out of the New Age movement. I think we should respect that, don't you? well this specific person gives off the "I am better than you mentality". If this is true then he is speaking on Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota ways Paul not for the Cherokee, Osage, Navaho, or anyone else. The fact is that when someone says the word "Indian" or Native American the Souix are the first thing that pops in someones head 99.9% of the time. When people practice Shamanism 99.9% of the time it is Lakota tradition. The fact of the matter is that if you're not "Indian" then you can't be practicing Lakota Shamainsm because you're a waschichin. It's just that concise. We're not talking Wicca where things have been given out to the public by it's initiated. These ways are strictly oral traditions which have never been privy to a White man...Ever. Yet we have all these white "Plastic Shamans" writing books on Lakota Shamanism? How does that work, and how would you put a stop to it if it were you? Pretty much? Right there is about 90% of their problem... If your friend leaves them alone completely, then your friend isn't the one who this declaration of war is directed at. Personally I don't see how any Shamanic practice can be made eclectic. I don't see how any form of spirituality can be made eclectic. Practice yes, philosophy yes. However Shamainsim is a way of the spirit IMHO. To me a spirit is either Celtic, Norse, Christian, Native American, Wiccan etc. etc. I don't see the in between. That doesn't mean there isn't one, it just means it isn't there for me. I don't like to see the ways of my ancestors mixed with Wicca. There was a time, but that time has past. I'm not sure whether I should feel shame in this discovery or feel liberated by it, but it is there. Again, they're speaking on Lakota ways. I wonder if you'd highlight where she "spit in any one's face"? My issue here is, if you're going to learn Shamanism, then learn the ways of your ancestors. Don't graft 5 or 6 paths of it, stick to one. Lean it, and live it. The Lakota are a very proud people, and they see anyone who steals from them as the enemy. I am learning a similar philosophy as I lend more and more credence to the Traditional Irish Gaelic movement, and see more and more people steal from other traditions and cultures. If you're going to borrow fine...However I see most of it as stealing. so like I said when someone takes that mentality and makes fun of/belittles someone because they choose to follow a different version of the spirituality I see it no differentr then a Christian of one demonination picking on a christian of another demonination .. .or a Gardinarian Wiccan Picking on a Member of another Tradition or Solitary.[/quote] We're not talking a religion that is open to all, or one that leaked out to the public. We're talking a religion that has been all but devastated by the white man. You know that there are reservations where I live that if I were to be caught there after dark...I prolly wouldn't be seen or heard from ever again. Then these white men want me to believe their practicing genuine Lakota ways? What do you think the answer to that would be?
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on May 20, 2007 16:13:33 GMT -5
I don't see it as bending over backwards to accept others beliefs... Only, that it is not my place to judge someone on their beliefs and spiritual truths.. That is between them and their God/dess. Of course it is your place to judge, as it is mine. We make judgements all the time whether they be political, friends, family, financial, spiritual, and so on. There are people we like and people we don't like. There are lifestyles and attitudes which we exalt and those we would gladly fight to stop. I agree with you that there is no point making judgements on people's beliefs when said beliefs have no bearing on us, I don't think that is often the case. "Pagan" has become a meaningless word due to abuse. Now all it means is "NOT one of the mainstream faiths." That is like trying to describe a cat only by saying it isn't a dog. This means every person who vaguely describes themself as a Pagan or a Witch reflects on us. They define us with or without our consent. To remain silent when such people say outrageous things is basically the same as tacit agreement. It is unfortuante but true. That is where I take my issues up. I don't care what people believe or practice on their own, but when they make their beliefs a matter of public discussion then they are by default opening themselves up for judgement. You are more tolerant than me. What about NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association). You don't feel it is our place to tell them their belief that sex with young, male children is a good thing is wrong? What about some of the darker Pagan paths? What about Fundamentalist Christians who don't think they should suffer a Witch to live? What if someone wanted to bring back Aztec sacrifices as a perfectly legitimate part of their system of beliefs? Human beings, for better or worse, live in a society or a network of societies. We do tell each other what is right or wrong. The point of free speech and exercise is that you can state your beliefs and so other people can state their objections. I respect that you are more easy going than myself, and perhaps it takes all kinds. It is my opinion that the so-called Pagan Community has been so easy going that we are now overrun with some pretty bizarre people and notions.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 20, 2007 16:46:44 GMT -5
You are more tolerant than me. What about NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association). You don't feel it is our place to tell them their belief that sex with young, male children is a good thing is wrong? What about some of the darker Pagan paths? What about Fundamentalist Christians who don't think they should suffer a Witch to live? What if someone wanted to bring back Aztec sacrifices as a perfectly legitimate part of their system of beliefs? Human beings, for better or worse, live in a society or a network of societies. We do tell each other what is right or wrong. The point of free speech and exercise is that you can state your beliefs and so other people can state their objections. I respect that you are more easy going than myself, and perhaps it takes all kinds. It is my opinion that the so-called Pagan Community has been so easy going that we are now overrun with some pretty bizarre people and notions. lol... OK, I can see your point Finn.. Though, I tend to have find fun and entertainment in the bizarre and strange... But, the Bizarre people are everywhere... Pagan and Non Pagan... I'm open to llistening to them all... I might not accept all of what they have to share, but, I'm still willing to listen... What about NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association).Ok.. yeah, I in no way, shape of form think that that is acceptable behaviour... I don't agree with the Fundamental Mindset either, but, there are fundy's in all paths too.. They don't belong to just the Christian Tradition... Which "Darker Pagan Paths" are you referring to? (Just trying to keep up.. lol) What if someone wanted to bring back Aztec sacrifices as a perfectly legitimate part of their system of beliefs? That would be interesting... They'd have to televise it on cable... No, I don't think that society as a whole would agree with that.. I'm not sure I do either.. I think I would ask who would be used as the sacrifice.... Oddly enough, that does make a difference in my head... Sorry.. Not trying to make light of what you are saying.. You do bring up excellent points.. And, I do find myself agreeing with alot of what you have to say...
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Post by Senbecc on May 20, 2007 16:55:36 GMT -5
I've witnessed this behavior too. Sadly, far too many people under the Pagan Umbrella feel "entitled" to help themselves to the practices, terms, and history of others. Most Neo-Pagans are completely oblivious to the fact that most practitioners of such faiths consider us spiritual carpetbaggers. They feel, and it is hard for me to quibble with them, that we steal their practices alter the context (which renders them meaningless) and apply new meanings and values which are actually insulting. This again is something I can't understand. It is something like meeting someone in a bar, you meet them you like them, soon you try to change them. Why? Why isn't the person you met in the bar good enough? Why would you want to change them from their original personality? I see men AND women do that all the time. Take the practice you borrow, fine, but why change it if you liked it? Why make it into something it isn't and render it useless and thus take away from the original philosophy as well?...Ive never understood that either Finn. Well, I do feel that according to the dúile's qualities of being that there are at least nine ways for a Druid to view the gods, I however don't see how the Archetypal "all gods are one and all goddesses are one" fit into that philosophy. To me the Irish gods are of a different breed all together and if one is to understand how the ancestors viewed their gods one must redefine how they view a "god". Firstly I don't feel the gods are worshiped at all, any more than one would worship their own grandmother, or best friend. I just don't see the Celts separating themselves from the Gods that way. Instead you have these Irish Druids who the Gods of old Eriu seek them out and "lay their hands on their soul" as if they were somehow being saved....It's just getting to be to much for me to wrap my mind around I suppose. Cute how they do that isn't it? Fact is an Mhór Rioghain is a goddess of War. Wiccans seem to choose their goddesses simply because they are somehow triple aspected. Seems to me Badb (possibly), Macha, Nemain were sisters of an Mhór Rioghain as opposed to being some triple aspect. Heh, this isn't the only example either. The Greek Hekate is another example. The Farrer's tell us that her three aspects are Artemis, Persephone, Hecate...When in reality the triple aspect of her nature was her realms being that of land, sky, and sea, as well as the fact that she "could be approached from any direction" as a Goddess of the "Crossroads". The above is exactly what I mean (and I think you mean as well) by twisting of culture. Oh I agree with you that they have the right to believe what they wish. However like an Mhór Rioghain being "just a triple aspected sex kitten" or the Farrer's stating with such certainty that Artemis and Persephone are aspects of Hekate thus twisting and and killing their original associations making no attempt to truly understand their meanings and myths...It is hard IMO to support them in these misconceptions.
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Post by theoccultchrist on May 21, 2007 2:39:42 GMT -5
well this specific person gives off the "I am better than you mentality". If this is true then he is speaking on Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota ways Paul not for the Cherokee, Osage, Navaho, or anyone else. The fact is that when someone says the word "Indian" or Native American the Souix are the first thing that pops in someones head 99.9% of the time. When people practice Shamanism 99.9% of the time it is Lakota tradition. The fact of the matter is that if you're not "Indian" then you can't be practicing Lakota Shamainsm because you're a waschichin. John, I Respectfully disagree with you. When I Immidatly think of Native American or "Indian: The Sioux are not the first group to pop into my head....the first groups that pop into my head are the inidan tribes that were around the ohio valley (as that is where I am from) The Shawnee for one * Example* , im not very var from Serpent Mound..where obviously mounds from mounbds building indian cultures still exist. ( I believe those were left by the hopewell peoples) The Cherokee pop into my head as I have it somewhere down my line..not enough to legally claim but still it is there. Im facinated by Indian Culture... I understand thier plight, and Iam sorry that all those years ago when the whites (Our ANcestors) came to this country they persceuted the indians..Im sorry that had to happen..it is a sad day in our history books. As I am Sad and Sorry that the blacks were treated as they were through out history. But Do I personally take responsibilty for it? No and Niether should you as We were not born yet. I did not live in those times so I shouldnt be held accountable for the things that happened simply because of the skin color I was born with. *That seems to me alot lot racism as well..only in reverse* Im an Equal Rights person.. I always have been..s o i woulda been there helping them to fight for their rights..and I probably woulda been Killed by the whites as well. I have nothing but respect for anybody. but the sioux are not The ONLY Indian Tribes to exist. and some of the other Indian Tribes that are still in existance today open some of their teachings up. And I know you follow a Druid path..but are you at all familar with Celtic Shamanism?..I dont know if its a new-age practice or not...but all I know is that it exists. So there are other forms of Shamanism out there besides the "Lakota Souix" Form..even other forms out there besides "Native American - Shamanism" Shamanism itself is a practice a spiritual practice that does not belong to just one culture. The Word "Shaman" itself actually comes from a specif people in Sibera a long long ways away from North America. There is Huna which i think is a form of Shamanism..from Hawaii. I Mentioned Celtic Shamanism. Hell, I was reading a book about the Kabballah..and it was pointing to Shamanic type ideals in the Jewish Tradition in the Old Testiment when it speaks of Jacobs Ladder. My Point is there are other forms of Shamanism besides Native American Shamanism and Even In The Paths of Native American Shamanism there are different Tribes with their own Shamanic Tradtions ..not Jus the Lakota Souix. The Lakota, as I said before if they do not wish to share their tribes specific shamanic traditions that is their perrogative. but at the same time they must realize that just because they don't teach their tribes brand of shamanism there are other "Indian" Native American Tribes that do choose to teach THAT TRIBES brand of Shamanism. I hope you get what I am saying?..I am not saying its okay to Rip off the Lakota and their traditions..and practicing their traditions when they don't want people outside the group to practice it..im not saying that. -- WHAT I AM SAYING is That there are countless other forms and traditions of Shamanism not just that one. Thank you. Bright Blessings, Namaste~ And Blessed Be!
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 21, 2007 2:47:42 GMT -5
Huna Kupua
Huna is a Hawaiian word meaning secret, but it also refers to the esoteric wisdom of Polynesia. Kupua is another Hawaiian word and it refers to a specialized healer who works with the powers of the mind and the forces of nature.
In that respect it is very similar to the Siberian Tungusic word shaman.
But.. I will add, that this is wisdom that was originally supposed to be secret and guarded....
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 21, 2007 2:55:56 GMT -5
The Lakota, as I said before if they do not wish to share their tribes specific shamanic traditions that is their perrogative. but at the same time they must realize that just because they don't teach their tribes brand of shamanism there are other "Indian" Native American Tribes that do choose to teach THAT TRIBES brand of Shamanism.Wait... Huh? Please restate... My brain hurts now
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Post by theoccultchrist on May 21, 2007 3:04:34 GMT -5
Also, as far as Ecclectic Practices Vs Traditional Goes.
I am Ecclectic because A Specfic Tradition is not my cup of tea. hell as you know ihave a dash of different religions as well.
Neo-PAganism PRactices and Gnostic/Mystical Christianity.
I am Ecclectic not because I "Hate Traditions" .. I dont hate any tradition..I respect all view points.
and I like to learn about all Cultures and Philosophies and spiritualities as much as I can.
I admit that I choose to incorperate what calls to me..but its not because I dont think that one tradition is not good enough or whatever.
Its just that I choose to view the Divine in a Whole Different light then say someone who may follow a specific tradition.
I know next to nothing about the irish/cletic gods..At some point I would love to learn.
But as I know next to nothing about it im not sure ho the path you follow chooses to view the divine but as I said in my member spotlight when asked how I view the "Gods"
This is what i had to say:
What is your take on the "Gods?" (polytheist, monotheist, ect.) Why?
I Basicly believe in a God and a Goddess Figure. I believe all the gods and goddesses of the world (Even the ones from Monothesistic relgions) all Exist and are Valid.
When I call to a Deity I do not call on a Specific one unless I have a specific God or Goddess in mind...I usually call on an Archetype or Attributes I desire..and let the god(s) come forth on its own accord.
Theres a Quote I found once it says "There is Absolutey Truth in all Relgions, but Absolutle Truth in None of them."
Another Quote is, "And so we ask for peace for the gods of our fathers, for the gods of our native land. It is reasonable that whatever each of us worships is really to be considered one and the same. We gaze up at the same stars, the sky covers us all, the same universe compasses us. What does it matter what practical systems we adopt in our search for the truth. Not by one avenue only can we arrive at so tremendous a secret." --- Symmachus, Quintus Aurelius
Even though I believe in Multiple Deities and Believe that they are unique and Indivdual in their own right -- I see them as well as Spiritual Figures *The Bhudda, Mohammed, Yeshua/Jesus* as being inter-connected at a Universal Source. I call this the "Universal-Divine Energy" Where I believe all the worlds dieties started. I've coined the phrase "Mono-PolyTheism"
That may not make sense to any of you..but it works for me, Lol.
Im not really going to say "All Gods are One God" as I believe each deity has its own unique personality and what not.
But what I do think is all of them have the same common source somewhere along the line..now where or what that is exactly I'm not sure.
I think there are too many relgions and spiritual practices and Deities out there for one to be right and the rest to be wrong. so I do my best to respect each one in my own little way.
That is why i am an ecclectic practioner and not a Traditionalist.
Because I think all Spiritualities are valid..and I cannot choose one over the other..as to me that would be a dis-service to the Divine.
This is what makes me spiritually fulfilled...if being a traditionalist makes you spiritualy fulfilled then more power to you.
this is was fulfills me spiritually.
Some may call me a fence setter..but eh..I don't care....this is my walk..I will have to answer to the divine for it and no one else.
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Post by theoccultchrist on May 21, 2007 3:07:10 GMT -5
The Lakota, as I said before if they do not wish to share their tribes specific shamanic traditions that is their perrogative. but at the same time they must realize that just because they don't teach their tribes brand of shamanism there are other "Indian" Native American Tribes that do choose to teach THAT TRIBES brand of Shamanism.Wait... Huh? Please restate... My brain hurts now There are Other Forms of Shamanism out there. Even Other Forms of "NAtive American-Shamanism" If the Lakota Do not want to share their teachings that is their right and their perrogative and I respect them for that. However, There are other Native American Tribes out there that Will and Do Teach Their Tribal Brand of Shamanism. There hope I cleared it up better. Thakn you.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 21, 2007 3:18:43 GMT -5
Wait... Huh? Please restate... My brain hurts now There are Other Forms of Shamanism out there. Even Other Forms of "NAtive American-Shamanism" If the Lakota Do not want to share their teachings that is their right and their perrogative and I respect them for that. However, There are other Native American Tribes out there that Will and Do Teach Their Tribal Brand of Shamanism. There hope I cleared it up better. Thakn you. Well no reason to get mad at the lala... am not stupid... were just confused by your sentence... I am aware of the fact that there are other kinds of shamanism out there... Or that there are a number of paths/traditions/Belief systems that have something similar to what we would call shamanism... My belief is that most all Indigenous people have some form of it... It's called by different names.. Often passed down orally and through years of teaching... But... this was secret knowledge... It was sacred and special to the people that it belonged to.. And, I wouldn't think that all the people of said Tribe/Clan/Path or Tradition would all hold this knowledge... If they had... they wouldn't have needed the shaman, or the healer... all would have had that knowledge, and, I don't believe that they all did.. I'm finding myself on that slippery slope where I'm starting to agree with what Finn and John have said on the matter... Shamanism is the cool new fad word, that people are finding that they like, they are trying it on, and flaunting a new shiny little title that they can use to impress others.... So... that being said.. I do feel that the Lakota have a right to be pissed off...
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Post by theoccultchrist on May 21, 2007 3:21:58 GMT -5
There are Other Forms of Shamanism out there. Even Other Forms of "NAtive American-Shamanism" If the Lakota Do not want to share their teachings that is their right and their perrogative and I respect them for that. However, There are other Native American Tribes out there that Will and Do Teach Their Tribal Brand of Shamanism. There hope I cleared it up better. Thakn you. Well no reason to get mad at the lala... am not stupid... were just confused by your sentence... I am aware of the fact that there are other kinds of shamanism out there... Or that there are a number of paths/traditions/Belief systems that have something similar to what we would call shamanism... My belief is that most all Indigenous people have some form of it... It's called by different names.. Often passed down orally and through years of teaching... But... this was secret knowledge... It was sacred and special to the people that it belonged to.. And, I wouldn't think that all the people of said Tribe/Clan/Path or Tradition would all hold this knowledge... If they had... they wouldn't have needed the shaman, or the healer... all would have had that knowledge, and, I don't believe that they all did.. I'm finding myself on that slippery slope where I'm starting to agree with what Finn and John have said on the matter... Shamanism is the cool new fad word, that people are finding that they like, they are trying it on, and flaunting a new shiny little title that they can use to impress others.... So... that being said.. I do feel that the Lakota have a right to be pissed off... Haha, LA la I wasnt getting mad at you. you just wanted me to break it down cause you were confused so I did my best to break it down..its 4:21 am here..and im tired so I figured you were tired too..s o Iwas trying to make it plain so you could see what i was saying...Im sorry if you thought I was trying to be an asshole or something..I really wasnt. But yes, I get what you are saying about Shamanism being a "cool New Fad".. I mean look at Wicca...Enuf said..lol Bright Blessings, Namaste~ and Blessed Be!
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Post by Lady Anastasia on May 21, 2007 3:24:18 GMT -5
Well no reason to get mad at the lala... am not stupid... were just confused by your sentence... I am aware of the fact that there are other kinds of shamanism out there... Or that there are a number of paths/traditions/Belief systems that have something similar to what we would call shamanism... My belief is that most all Indigenous people have some form of it... It's called by different names.. Often passed down orally and through years of teaching... But... this was secret knowledge... It was sacred and special to the people that it belonged to.. And, I wouldn't think that all the people of said Tribe/Clan/Path or Tradition would all hold this knowledge... If they had... they wouldn't have needed the shaman, or the healer... all would have had that knowledge, and, I don't believe that they all did.. I'm finding myself on that slippery slope where I'm starting to agree with what Finn and John have said on the matter... Shamanism is the cool new fad word, that people are finding that they like, they are trying it on, and flaunting a new shiny little title that they can use to impress others.... So... that being said.. I do feel that the Lakota have a right to be pissed off... Haha, LA la I wasnt getting mad at you. you just wanted me to break it down cause you were confused so I did my best to break it down..its 4:21 am here..and im tired so I figured you were tired too..s o Iwas trying to make it plain so you could see what i was saying...Im sorry if you thought I was trying to be an asshole or something..I really wasnt. Bright Blessings, Namaste~ and Blessed Be! lol... nah, it's all good... if I thought you were being an asshole, I would have called you one.. and, then gotten yelled at from our Admins... lol We're cool
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Post by theoccultchrist on May 21, 2007 3:31:42 GMT -5
I Do get what this is saying..I like learning the Gnostic stuff.and I get mad at times because a few centuries ago the orthodoxy church decided to erase any trace of gnosticism.
that example is kinda the same but kinda different. but the main point is there..the "Cultural rape" thing.
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Post by Senbecc on May 21, 2007 3:50:15 GMT -5
If this is true then he is speaking on Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota ways Paul not for the Cherokee, Osage, Navaho, or anyone else. The fact is that when someone says the word "Indian" or Native American the Souix are the first thing that pops in someones head 99.9% of the time. When people practice Shamanism 99.9% of the time it is Lakota tradition. The fact of the matter is that if you're not "Indian" then you can't be practicing Lakota Shamainsm because you're a waschichin. Most people I think think of the long ceremonial head dresses and Buffalo hunters on the Prairie, but thats not really the point. The point is those who live from Canada down to Iowa stretching East and West across the Plains think of the Lakota, Nakota, Dakota, and Cheyanne, etc. Plains Indians is usually what our culture thinks of. Well so am I. I think their women are some of the most beautiful in the world (bar the fact that most around here don't have butts). I learn about the Culture, but that's all I can learn. The ways of the Holy men and other types of "dreamers" are an orally transmitted religion which a white man isn't welcome to. I have it on fairly good source that the Tsalagi Didanawisgi (or Cherokee Holy man or Shaman I guess) don't "just give away" their sacred rites. A Cherokee woman writes this: Seeing how most north american (which is what i was refering to btw, sorry for any confusion) indian tribes, pass down this sacred knowledge in oral tradition only, i am a bit wary of those claiming multiple practice etc. i have a deep concern that these beautiful and holy practices are being taken widely out of context, mixed with other bits of religiosity from elsewhere, formulized and sold for profit. which they were never ment for. so i encourage all of you who may have a care to read this, to think wisely before you claim anything or endevour into any so called "native american" spirituality. it is a very precious thing to many people, and they don't take it lightly when it is made a mockery of and sold.I don't think they're asking any of us to take responsibility for it. It isn't racism to want to protect whats yours. Keep it pure for the next generation of Lakota or Tsalagi or what ever the case may be. They just want to survive is what I get from the declaration. Pure of White blood in most cases. I see it as pride, Lakota pride. They want to survive. Where in the declaration did she ever make the claim the Lakota was the "only" tribe or nation in existence? I would agree that many cultures (including the Lakota) teach the ways of their culture, just not the ways of the Holy people. I doubt any of the the medicine people of any Native Nation would. Yes it does exist and is a study taken from what is known about ancient practice of the Celtic peoples of Europe. There is no Native American culture involved. Nor should there be, as if there were then it would no longer be Celtic. It would be a mix, neither Celtic or Native. Paul...I'm coming to strangle you....(lol) No one ever said it was the ONLY brand of Shamanism. Nor to them is it even KNOWN as Shamanism. If you have been told otherwise you need to check their sources. True, it is also instead an anthropological classification of tribal holy practices and tradition. Paul...Seriously now...Can you highlight for me where anyone even the initial post made the claim that the Lakota people were the only culture to ever practice "shamanism"? Again, I think they're teaching Culture not the ways of the Holy men. Cultural practices of Native American Culture.
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