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Post by Senbecc on May 22, 2007 8:36:32 GMT -5
I understand now finally.. Thanks for explaining. My oppinion is simple. I believe what I want to believe. I don't care if mental health workers call me insane.. If I wanna believe that unicorns exist then I will. Same goes for lycanthropes and everything else.. I mean, our lives are short we should make the most of it and not worry about what everyone else thinks.. Do you get called "insane" allot Wolf?
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Post by Wolf on May 22, 2007 8:41:02 GMT -5
Yes, I care but there is nothing we can do about it. I'm sure there are a few people out there trying but they'd only take a few away, there would still be the majority left to hurt people. There will always be murderers and rapists in the world.. A new one would be born everyday..
As for the fantasy of sexually abused people I still say let them be.. If they feel safe then that's a good thing.. To bring them back to this harsh reality could be either really damaging or it could help you never know.. Sorry again if this doesn't make any sense its late and I'm tired plus I'm fighting with someone..
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Post by Wolf on May 22, 2007 8:42:33 GMT -5
Haha! Yes actually.. By my mother and corey.. Scary huh?
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Post by Wolf on May 22, 2007 8:45:32 GMT -5
Oops forgot to quote.. Lol
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Post by Wolf on May 22, 2007 8:48:22 GMT -5
I just realised that I think I've been smited! Lol hang on.. It could be that I got more karma not less... I don't know lol
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Post by blackwolf on May 22, 2007 12:05:26 GMT -5
Well, let's see here...I shall address this, from a few of the angles, which have been brought up...And as I have said, I am not in the pre-integrated state I was, therefore I know we are not discussing me...However, just to be clear...there was not that abuse, in my case...Does not apply...So, to proceed :
1. Let us start, with Rowanashmore's comment about "allowing" those, considered not integrated into "society" , to wander around ( And I am sorry, you were attacked, Rowanashmore )...In many cultures, those considered " different", by society's standards, were not only left alone, they were seen as " holy people "' interfaces, for the voices of the " Gods "...The more, they seemed disconnected, from here, the more they were connected to the Otherworld...As long as they were able to communicate, they were seen to be valid, and were respected, highly...
2.Let us speak about my standard of what is "sane", for a moment...If any of you, believe you live in a sane world, respectfully said, I feel sorry for you...Look around you...We have a Madman, for a president, and people follow him...We have a consumer based, militaristic based, left brain based, technological based society, encroaching further, and further, on people's freedoms, Religion,and religious based battle's all over...people, in general, live in their own, little bubbles, whether it be their cars, homes, workspaces, or even their computers...I for one, would much rather, sit with someone, looking into their eyes, and speaking with them, or hearing their voice on the phone, than typing into this computer... That is, if, and only if, they had the respect to do so...To speak WITH, not AT...and with true, shall we say, Comraderie...otherwise, they could go speak with others, of their kind...We live, in a society, which enhances the alienation of Humanity, everyday, strips the magic out of the world, replacing it with what people are told what they want, and what to think...our environment is being destroyed at every turn, the places, in nature, where one can go, for sanctity, and communion, are taken away, by corporate interests, often under governmental approval, money, taken from the people, against the law, is then put toward systems which mostly do not enhance the lives of the people, in general, but often only the elite, let alone money for schools, women, and children....Food, and health care...our natural ways of healing, now termed "alternative", are being taken away, and replaced by drugs, or other methodologies, which do more harm, in many instances, than good...( and, as far as I am concerned, modern medicine, is the "alternative" medicine, not the other way around )... sometimes needed, sometimes works...for that matter, we are being told, we have no control over our own bodies, to ingest substances, even if we choose to do so, or not, whatever they be...and, we are told, we can not even choose our time to die...against the law...this is not just in our country...look around...And you people think, this is a society, sane, (so called), people, truly want to live in ? I think everyone, ought to be very glad, people are not running around the steets, and countrysides, by the millions, screaming, killing, and maiming...I truly, not just believe, I KNOW, that this is not a sane reality...I applaud those who would live in what you call a fantasy world, compared to that reality...because I turn that whole argument on it's head, and say the opposite...Those who believe in, and choose to live in that reality, are living in the biggest fantasy world, ever created, tho, I would term it a Horror Fantasy...
3. Compared to the thousands of people, killed everyday, by the above described society, we presently live in, thank you very much, but I would take my chances...rather than live in a regimented, militaristic, controlled society...with a state sponsored religion...and even tho, Ancient Rome, as you would see it, was different, it too, became that...I told, Homeland Security officers, in Oregon, to F*c* off, when they harrassed me, for leaving my bag, alone on a table, in a public library, after 911, and got applauded for it, by a roomfull of people...who then proceeded to boo them out of the library...If people live in fear, they shall die in fear...not me, nor is that a healthy society...continual stress...I have known a number of people, who were attacked, raped, abused, in their life...matter of fact, some have come to me, in my capacity, as a teacher/practitioner, of the Mgieckal Tradition, and I have worked with them, with positive results...not all...some, definitely, need years of work, from the Shamanistic/Mgieckal, and Alternative, Western based approach...and, whether thru me, or others, they all said the same thing...it was only when, they got over their fears, they truly began to live, again...Our modern society, which I am hearing people calling sane, inspires fear, and trauma, let alone daily stresses, so severe,most people, in this country, as well as others, must escape, into corporate sponsored drugs, alchohol, TV, other forms of entertainment, other drugs...So, I for one, would not judge those, who choose to live in their world, as a valid "alternative", to this madness, and you bet, I will take my chances, and I'm ready for any of them, if I am attacked, by mad people, including our "government", or, anyone from society, in general, including, mad people, I have run into , on the Internet...some are just, angry people, riding the fine edge of "madness" , imposing their wills, and beliefs, on others...However, if I ever saw, anyone, hurting anyone else, would I do my best, even unto my death, if need be, to stop it...? absolutely, and I have...Even to protecting a dog, from being beaten by Hell's Angels...Got my lip, punched thru my teeth, but the dog was saved, and they got a broken windshield, then got pulled over, and busted...Would I have helped you, Rowanashmore ? To my dying breath, if need be...but give me a free society, of ideas, beliefs, and ways, tho, a society, based on principles, of Love, Caring, Compassion, And True Sisterhood, and Brotherhood, over the alternative, we have now...Judge not those, who find their own worlds, more palatable than this reality...I now turn this debate back to the"Mad", the"insane", who believe, this, is the truly sane world... No insults meant, just responding in kind...I'm outta here!
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Post by blackwolf on May 22, 2007 12:15:41 GMT -5
Quick P.S.
3. True mgieck, is not retual, spells, or honoring/ worshipping, Gods, or Goddesses...True Mgieck, is the creation of Inner Worlds, and bringing them forth, into this dimension...which some of us, thank you very much, are Quite Excellent at...Blessings...
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on May 22, 2007 13:01:48 GMT -5
I'm doing my best to give you plenty of leeway and not answer most of your posts. This is largely because I'm trying to avoid giving you the perception that you are being personally attacked. However, you continually make statements that can and should be challenged. In many cultures, those considered " different", by society's standards, were not only left alone, they were seen as " holy people "' interfaces, for the voices of the " Gods "...The more, they seemed disconnected, from here, the more they were connected to the Otherworld...As long as they were able to communicate, they were seen to be valid, and were respected, highly... Please name them and define specifically what you mean by different. There are indeed some cultures that set aside their "black sheep" in special groupings, but your use of the word "many" is inappropriate, and you are glossing over the details. Most cultures do not embrace their "black sheep." To be fair, I think you need to expand on this claim and give some specifics and supporting cites. Really? While I do not disagree that there is horror in the world, I hardly think your rather long, elaborate rant against it describes the condition most people endure. Most people I meet get by, day to day, experience a fair amount of happiness, and expected amount of pain, and so on. Their interaction with society is just a fact of life. In general, a productive way of dealing with the problems of the world is to face them, fight them, and do what you can. I do not share your opinion that simply choosing to live in a fantasy of your own creation is an option to be applauded. You do realize you spend a lot of time talking about yourself? I don't happen to think that the problems of the real world are any justification for retreating into a imaginary one. Moreover, I'm not certain what any of that you just told us has to do with anything? You give evidence as to why this world has problems. You do not give evidence for why replacing it with an imaginary one helps.
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Aislin
Seeker
She who walks on clouds of dreams, and dances in the rain
Posts: 22
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Post by Aislin on May 22, 2007 13:25:17 GMT -5
For cultures that support their by your label "black sheeps", lets face it nearly every ancient culture's holy people would be institutionalized by our standards. Look at Norse Berserkers (one could psychologically classify their battle rage as a psychotic outburst induced by delusions), the oracles at Delphi (schizophrenia and psychotic delusions come to mind), and generally every prophet and holy person who claimed to speak with god(s) would be engaged in "magical thinking" (yes it is a psychological disorder according to the DSM-V by the APA) and or various other forms of psychosis. By this definition all Pagans are "mentally ill" from a psycholgical standpoint (And of course I disagree with this, I'm considered crazy by my own discipline). The question really to be asked is when do we step up and say "No. this isn't tolerable". The answer is when the persons beliefs (e.g. delusions by psychological standing) are not offensive to others, but rather put others in real physical damage. Just because you're not comfortable with a persons "delusions" does not serve as a marker that they should be shunned and made to stop.
And that is just what those who chose to use this type of coping skill. It is their way of dealing with whatever it is that is bothering them. And we all do it. Some people's "retreat" may simply be meditation, others may be drug use. When it is maladaptive it decreases the quality of life experienced by the individual. Wolf here seems to be having quite a nice life, and therefore I would not consider his coping methods to be maladaptive.
We all create our own fantasy world, psychologically speaking each time we cast circle and commune with the Gods as we see them. From a psychological standpoint, every pagan lives in a fantasy world. Don't believe me, go tell a psychologist about a circle casting and see the looks you get.
Again everyone does retreat into their own world when that is their chosen coping skill. Consider it an expansion of the flight or fight response. Rather than fight, those who use this method of coping, go else where.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on May 22, 2007 13:41:05 GMT -5
For cultures that support their by your label "black sheeps", lets face it nearly every ancient culture's holy people would be institutionalized by our standards. Look at Norse Berserkers (one could psychologically classify their battle rage as a psychotic outburst induced by delusions), the oracles at Delphi (schizophrenia and psychotic delusions come to mind), and generally every prophet and holy person who claimed to speak with god(s) would be engaged in "magical thinking" (yes it is a psychological disorder according to the DSM-V by the APA) and or various other forms of psychosis. To be a "blacksheep" you must be out of synch with your society. The "berserkers" were not considered thus. The oracles at Delphi might be considered a good example if it were not for the fact that the oracles were not special people who got sent there for evidencing specific skills (or being different) but rather an institutionalized type of soothsaying which historically was very organized. This thread started dealing with people whose fantasy world is clearly maladaptive, or bordering on it. Lycantrhopy for example, is maladaptive. Actually, by that definintion all people of faith or religion would be considered mentally ill. The only standard of sanity would be whether or not your faith was in the majority and thus your belief in it adaptive. But that isn't what we are dealing with in cases of Lycanthropy or the Otherkin. This has nothing to do with whether or not I personally am comfortable with their delusions. It is, as you say, a question of whether said individuals are a threat to society and/or themselves. I'm not talking about Wolf, or any individual case. I'm talking in general. This type of coping skill is considered maladaptive and it is a far cry from meditation, although it does share a great deal in common with drug use in both reasons and longterm effects. The problem is, that like drug use, by the time you become aware of the maladaptive properties there is little you can do to undo the damage. Such people must still come up for air and DEAL with the problems they ran away from, or dive ever deeper into their so-called coping strategy. Again, so does every religion person who prays. That is apples and oranges to what we are talking about however. There is a big difference between religious practice and believing oneself is a wolf which may lead to ending up on top of someone because your "animal instincts" took over and you are biting them. I don't for a moment see any problem with the people who like to dress up in old costumes and pretend it is the Middle Ages for the weekend, or people how want to play Vampire roleplaying games, and so on. However, I do think there is a problem when said people cannot tell the difference between where the game ends and their life begins.
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Post by blackwolf on May 22, 2007 14:42:24 GMT -5
Thank you Aislin...Good to see you...However, I am going to take it further, only one time more...then leave it to you, and others...
Just to give two more examples, and after that Finn, you claim to be an anthropologist...If you don't know, or haven't done your homework, I am not obligated to help you further than these two;
1. Psychological Androgynes ( ie: crossdressers/practitioners of a two sexed tradition )
2. Coyote People ( walking backward, talking backward, dressing backward )
And this is not just modern practice, limited to Native American... As I say, I am not obligated, to do further homework, for you...
Now, those who, as you put it, "get by"... no thank you...My rant, as you so "nicely", put it, rather than my feelings, or my position, which they are, is one shared by many scientists, and many others, from all walks of life, out there today...and, NO, I am not obligated to verify that...just start asking people with an open mind...( ooops, did I say that ) I am really trying here...
I use real life examples, to document what I am saying...Yes...My life...better than speaking from other's experiences, or quoting other's words, most of the time...And so what, if I do ?
Other than that, what you, or other's, here, and in western, as I said before, "civilization", feel is valid, is valid for you, them, and them, and you, alone...Only that...This discussion, is revolving around whether the above mentioned topics, are real, or not...however, other's brought up the need to challenge them, on their assertion, other pepole needed to fit into their pigeonhole, of what their idea, of a sane world was...My statements, not my rant, ( again, how polite of you ) adressed this, in the way, I chose to address it...doesn't matter, again, whether other's agree...this board is not about winning...it is about viewing things, thru another person's lens...Now, I am glad, for the reality, you, and other's have created, for yourself, and themselves...My position, is strictly this, when all is said, and done...NO ONE, has the right to diagnose, or pigeonhole, anyone, especially, according to the dictates of western ideals; they have no right, to determine what is "real", or not...By psychiatric standards, 90% of the world, would be committed, for one thing, or another...and yes, I have read the books...As long as one is not an immediate physical threat, they are fine, in my book...Which is as valid, as yours, anyone else's or the psychiatric association, which I and other's,personally (yep, personal experience ) have diagnosed, with the biggest Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder, of all...The need to diagnose everyone else...May everyone be happy, in their own reality tunnel, and that is what this board is...seeing thru other's reality tunnels, which includes, personal experience, and feelings...
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on May 22, 2007 14:59:24 GMT -5
Just to give two more examples, and after that Finn, you claim to be an anthropologist...If you don't know, or haven't done your homework, I am not obligated to help you further than these two; 1. Psychological Androgynes ( ie: crossdressers/practitioners of a two sexed tradition ) 2. Coyote People ( walking backward, talking backward, dressing backward ) You said "many." Two is not many compared to the volume of world cultures, nor in fact would even ten. But in reference to these, most cultures do not embrace their crossdressers. I believe you are meaning to refer to those born with both sets of sex organs. These people were, in ancient times, often considered holy and/or given special status. However, that is because they were born with a physical difference. The Coyote People are a special case as well. One could declare oneself a Coyote person and walk that path for a period of time and then return from it. It wasn't a place where any with alternate views of reality were placed. In fact, Coyote People made it a point to do the opposite of what other people did, proving they understood normal reality and were making a statement. They understood the difference between realities perfectly. I trust you see the point? But since you use yourself in all your examples, let us return to that frame of reference. You have said that you collect disability for "Lycanthropy." I will take you at your word. If that is the case, the government has deemed you unable to function in normal society without aid because you are considered mentally disabled. Later, you said you are no longer afflicted with this condition. Does this mean you no longer accept the disability money? Also, doesn't the fact that you accept it mean that you are indeed taking part in our materialistic society?
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Post by blackwolf on May 22, 2007 15:02:27 GMT -5
P.S. I did not just contradict myself, concerning the right to psychologically diagnose..Just playing the "Do unto other's..." card, as long as their profession started the game...Trump!
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Post by blackwolf on May 22, 2007 15:53:35 GMT -5
Nope, I meant Psychological Androgynes, just like I said...And you are wrong, on ONE level, about the Coyote people...What they are truly living out, is the Mirror Universe, as I have discussed with Shamen, before...Are they aware of this reality ? most likely...But we are not debating that...Again, this debate concerns, whether lycanthropia, or otherkin, is a "real" reality, or a mind condition...I posit, it is no more, or less valid, than any other...We both agree on the danger to society, from those unable to keep from physical violence...but one does not have to be lycanthrope, or otherkin, to be that type of threat...I bring the topic, back to it's original question...Is it a mind condition?
As for your final question, then, bye bye...you say so many things, which deserve to be challenged, and I will not debate that point with you, because, I choose not to live my life, debating with people, normally...( O, speaking of normal... that was my point, with my statements above...I posit, by my standards, this is not a "Normal" society, we live in... It is an "Abnormal" society, if I have to make a diagnosis, to defend a point...prefer not to diagnose ), but I have better things to do, with my life, than to try to talk anyone, out of what I might, if, I chose to percieve it that way, (if ) , their delusions, even that the society they live in, is "Normal", and has a right, to determine that for others...If most of a society, is living abnormally, then would not those, who did not seem to fit in, be the truly sane ? The ones, who desired a society, of acceptance, for different perceptions of reality ? ( Again, it was others who took the debate, into areas of possible violence, that was not, the original question, as per the Title of the thread...
So, since you will not stop, and this is why, I refuse to debate with you, but will with others, if they choose to invite me...One, no, my diagnosis, is now that I do not fit into the abnormal consensus reality, thus, am unable to hold a job...I do not care, unless forced to, or am in active conversation/debate, who the president is, what day, or time it is, or most of the other questions, which are used, to determine one's ability to act within "Normal" society...Do I accept that money...Yes, and I am doing it from my social obligation, to take it out of the hands, of a government, which would rather use it for war, or other programs, detrimental, to the common health of the people...I have answered your questions...do not bother answering this post, my friend, cause I am gone...I've said, what needed, to be said, by me, to contribute, to what i percieve, as the positive direction of this thread...I bring everyone back to the original question...Is lycanthropia, a mind condition, or is it real?...I have made my valid, whether others think so, or not, points...Blessings...Good fortune, on the furtherance of the thread...
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Aislin
Seeker
She who walks on clouds of dreams, and dances in the rain
Posts: 22
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Post by Aislin on May 22, 2007 17:11:22 GMT -5
I hope no offense was taken at my psychological points, I was speaking purely from a clinical psychology perspective (one that I for the majority of the points, disagree with.) I myself am more Jungian/Humanistic in my personal perspective on things.
With that said, I do think that lycanthropia is a real phenomena, as it is documented in ancient Greece, as well as other European cultures. I don't feel like going through some of my books and finding references, If the case of real vs. imagined is that important to anyone, then have at it finding the sources.
Who says that things created by the mind are not real in themselves? One of the tenants of the craft I was taught is that thoughts have the power and ability to manifest themselves in reality, and isn't that when it all boils down the essence of any spell craft?
If a reality for an individual (be it "actual" or "created") helps that person feel more comfortable in their own skin. . . then who are we to say it is not valid? Does it hurt us to allow others to live their lives as they see best for them? If it is a case on wether you think it is right to draw disablity for this condition, then I would like to point out the hundreds of people i see daily (I work in a retail grocery store) whom, have nothing wrong with them, admit to just not wanting to work when someone will pay for their every need, collecting an SSI check as well as other government benefits? I see this individual in a far worse light than I would someone who simply cannot "fit" into normal society based on their perception of themselves.
Finn, if you believe that otherkin are detrimental to society/the individual in question, then how do you feel about people whom are trans gendered ( having biologically one sex, but identity of another sex) or intersex (those whose biological make up is neither male nor female)? How would you approach them? And what of the Kachina of the Zuni and Hopi? Specifically the dancers that become one with the spirits? Just curious.
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