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Post by divsky on Apr 1, 2007 9:21:22 GMT -5
The ideal of love all is a pretty sounding concecpt held in Christianity. And it's also pretty widespread in many forms of Paganism. The idea that, regardless of who they are and how they treat us, we have to go out of our way to love everyone. The question I have with this, is forced love really love at all? Doesn't this idea devalue the whole concept of love? And what's wrong with not liking someone?
The whole ideal is in line with concept prevalent in what some would call a patriarchal society. That our emotions and feelings can't be trusted. That what we feel naturally is a weakness that must be overcome by discipline and will. By willfully ignoring the fact that we don't like someone and imposing a forced love on them we have conquered our own emotions. Is that what we want? Should we be trying to conquer and kill of parts of our natural selves just because they aren't in line with our conceived notion of how we -should- be?
And is hate really evil? The concept has been pounded into our skulls from cheesy fantasy movies to video games. The villian, he's evil. He's full of hate. And even though most Pagans don't believe in the concept of evil, they somehow at the same time maintain all the aversion to hate. If love is the strong desire to be close to someone or something, then hatred is the opposite. The strong desire to be away from it. Dealt with in that light it doesn't need to have the associations with violence and control that we give it. Is the desire to be apart from something that horrible of a thing? It may not be if we treated it like that. Hatred, like anger, is completely natural to feel at times.
If you dislike someone so much that it casuses actual physical discomfort just to be in the same area as them, it's probably not healthy to ignore that. We should take that feeling at face value and just do our best to not be around that person. We shouldn't try to deny our feelings and then force ourselves to love them. And sometimes we feel hatred even towards people we love. Sometimes we need to be close to people, but sometimes we need time alone. I see no point in ignoring the fact that you can't stand being around a person, even if you normally love them, and just distancing yourself for a while.
Of course there will always be people you will always hate. And that's fine, you should just do your best to avoid that person. But you should also try to look at -why- you do hate them at the same time. Maybe you're part of the problem. Maybe it has to do with some unhealthy biases and prejudices on your own part that you need to deal with. Of course hatred based on prejudice and ignorence can never be tolerated. But sometimes hating someone (or something) is unavoidable. And when it is, we should just accept it and do our best to stay away.
I believe we should never deny any part of ourselves. What we feel is completely natural. What we need to do is deal with these emotions in healthy ways. Ignoring and denying them is not a healthy way. Maybe there would be a lot less hatred in this world if we could just accept that it's really alright to feel hate sometimes.
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Post by Senbecc on Apr 1, 2007 14:48:11 GMT -5
The ideal of love all is a pretty sounding concecpt held in Christianity. And it's also pretty widespread in many forms of Paganism. The idea that, regardless of who they are and how they treat us, we have to go out of our way to love everyone. The question I have with this, is forced love really love at all? Doesn't this idea devalue the whole concept of love? And what's wrong with not liking someone? This is a strong post lad, and I can see you're struggling with this, so as someone who has been in a similar situation I will try to answer some of your questions the best I know how, seeing as I'm not really sure I have them tacked down all that well for myself. Hmm, how to approach this? I don't know if I can say that I see being connected to every other person and loving them as the same thing, perhaps an aspect, but certainly not love as you seem to be referring to. I think how one is treated by another is the primary basis on how we will view that person from then on, while a person may or may not be able to forgive, I certainly see no reason to go out of our way to treat someone with respect after they shit on you every chance they get. As a Celt it is my belief that under Brehon Law one should get what they give. All things are equal in other words. If the devalue you, they why would you want to respect them, and further, why would you want to give them love again? I think the best description I've ever heard of "love" is "Giving someone the power to destroy you, and trusting them not to." IMO, there is nothing wrong with not liking some one. There are guys I've met on the net that if I was ever put in the same room with them I'd absolutely stomp their guts out...I'm pretty sure that would qualify as not liking them. Damn Mike...I wonder who told you that you "had" to like/love some one? Feelings are the basis of trust. Feelings are at the most basic levels at which spirit becomes separated, if you ignore feelings then you ignore the instructions given by one's "soul self" (or higher self I suppose) and from there just beg for trouble. Listen to those instincts, the trouble here is that even instincts and feelings can become cluttered and pull you in every possible direction, this is where you have to collect yourself however and try sifting through these feelings and seeing for what they are or represent and thus concluding from there. Easier said than done I'll admit, I'll be sure and let you know how that turns out. Is hate evil?...No I don't think it's evil, but OTOH I am one who does not subscribe to the ideas of good and evil per-say. Even the most 'evil' people through out history felt they were doing what they were doing for the greater good, they thought they were ridding the world of some 'evil', which lends credence to my mind to the old adage, 'Some of the most evil acts in history, were done with the best intentions'. I do however see hate as a product of fear, and not necessarily the opposite of love, though I can certainly see how one might see them as a yin and yang aspect. No, it isn't a terrible thing to want something out of your life Mike, just remember, it isn't the leaving that is hurtful to others, but more-over how you leave.... No that is absolutely not something that should be ignored, in no way would that be a healthy thing to do. I agree, one should get as far as they can if the feelings of dislike are that strong. Hurt like that doesn't simply go away, sometimes it never does, sometimes no matter what they do or say their simple attention will rekindle the fire of anger and dishonor, at which time yes...It is definitely best to get the hell away from them lol. Seldom IMO is one side completely at fault. I'd go so far in that as to say I've never once seen it actually happen, and yes...You definitely should take the time to look at the issues and separate what is you, and what is the other person. As I said, this was a very strong post and I hope to see many more, it seems to me that the way of any "pagan" is to find the truths in being as they correspond to nature and to the self. Ignoring feelings isn't something that will accomplish this, it will simply bring on sickness of the spirit. Feel the hate, and invest in a nice punching bag would be my advice.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Apr 2, 2007 1:07:35 GMT -5
Very interesting posty Mike...
I wouldn’t’ necessarily say that this is a forced kind of love.. perhaps more of a Treat how you wish to be treated kind of concept… Dislike, in and of itself is natural, and there is nothing really wrong with it… But, there are also times when you should throw away your preconceived notions of who people are, forgive and forget, and also, the old adage of judging a book by it’s cover.. We know that some event’s and first meetings stick in the mind.. But, not always should they be set in stone.. People and things do change..
That our emotions and feelings can't be trusted. That what we feel naturally is a weakness that must be overcome by discipline and willz
I see some emotion, such as crying and openly showing sadness, grief, etc as a weakness… so, yeah, I can understand this..
I think that Hatred, is a negative.. When you can dislike, and have an aversion to something, you can just distance yourself from it… When you “Hate” the emotion there is so strong, that you can’t get away from it.. It eats from the inside out… Much like a cancer… It is much better to dislike, or, to simply be detached…. When you Hate, you continue to waste vast amounts of energy on that thing, or person… Hate, in a sense, gives the object of your hate, power over you…
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Post by divsky on Apr 2, 2007 1:18:41 GMT -5
Very interesting posty Hate, in a sense, gives the object of your hate, power over you… The object of your hate doesn't gain power over you, the hate itself gains power over you. Much the same way someone who can't control their anger, or any emotion for that matter, lets that emotion gain power over them. The point I'm trying to make here is accepting what you feel is real. The next step is dealing with it in a responsible way. Trying to pretend like you can make it go away is just a way of lying to yourself. You can't make emotions go away at will. You can only deal with them. We accept this with sadness, fear, anger.. why can't we accept this truth with hate?
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Post by divsky on Apr 2, 2007 1:36:47 GMT -5
The point I was trying to make with this is that no matter what, there will be people you hate. This is a fact of life. I felt conflicted because I always felt it was wrong to hate people.
Eventually I just learned that no matter what I'm going to hate these certain people. There are people in the world who are dominating, arrogent, and thrive off of bringing other people down. Those are the people I don't like. I can't force myself not to hate them. And I'm not going to let myself feel ashamed for feeling hatred, as it's just a normal reaction that everyone experiences.
What I can do is change how I act on that. Yes, I hate them. Am I going to let that control me? No. Am I going to try to change that? No. The best thing you can do is accept it, do your best to avoid those people, and move on.
You can't do anything about how you feel towards certain people. You can always change how you act.
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Post by wvdonovan on Apr 11, 2007 9:25:53 GMT -5
The point I was trying to make with this is that no matter what, there will be people you hate. This is a fact of life. I felt conflicted because I always felt it was wrong to hate people. Eventually I just learned that no matter what I'm going to hate these certain people. There are people in the world who are dominating, arrogent, and thrive off of bringing other people down. Those are the people I don't like. I can't force myself not to hate them. And I'm not going to let myself feel ashamed for feeling hatred, as it's just a normal reaction that everyone experiences. What I can do is change how I act on that. Yes, I hate them. Am I going to let that control me? No. Am I going to try to change that? No. The best thing you can do is accept it, do your best to avoid those people, and move on. You can't do anything about how you feel towards certain people. You can always change how you act. Very well put, Mike. My ex was extremely abusive--and in the process of being in that relationship I became very insecure, very "self-hating", if you will. I used to say that he never did anything to me that I didn't allow him to. But that was comepltely untrue. You can not control how others behave or how others feel--but you can control how you let their actions affect you. It took a long time for me to realize that being happy was a "choice"--and letting the anger and resentment eat away at my self-esteem was also a "choice". Good post, Mike--kudos!!
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Post by stormcat on Apr 16, 2007 18:55:44 GMT -5
Humph...I don't pretend to like people who are slime, I ignore them, shun them. They mean so little to me I refuse to acknowledge their existence. I always try to treat people as I would like to be treated. It doesn't mean I'm a walking mat for humanity. I've had to grow beyond hate. I've had some terrible experiences, I expect I'll have more before I die. I'm trying an experiment, I'm not going to sweat the BS anymore. It's been working, until my PC drama. I can honestly say I hate no one. Now not liking others is another matter, I'm only human. As you get older maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from. I'm as you will be, I've been where you are, two sides of one coin.>^-.-^<
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Post by Senbecc on Apr 21, 2007 18:14:13 GMT -5
Humph...I don't pretend to like people who are slime, I ignore them, shun them. They mean so little to me I refuse to acknowledge their existence. I always try to treat people as I would like to be treated. It doesn't mean I'm a walking mat for humanity. I've had to grow beyond hate. I've had some terrible experiences, I expect I'll have more before I die. I'm trying an experiment, I'm not going to sweat the BS anymore. It's been working, until my PC drama. I can honestly say I hate no one. Now not liking others is another matter, I'm only human. As you get older maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from. I'm as you will be, I've been where you are, two sides of one coin.>^-.-^< VERY nicely put!
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