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Post by Senbecc on Jan 22, 2007 15:53:57 GMT -5
Thats right I said it! *waits for a thunder bolt from the gods*.....No? OK then. People sure do love their mysteries don't they? Mystery traditions, mystery meat, mystery this and mystery that. If for example something is ancient then by default it grabs the imagination, and carries that mystery even if the people of ancient cultures, as well as to those modern practitioners it is commonplace in everyday life. Mystery arouses and tantalizes, perhaps this is one reason I see so many Wiccans claiming that the religion is some branch of Celtic/Druidic belief, and that mystery is further enhanced by such dramatic concepts as year and a day training, and "secret initiations"...The word "Mystery" is actually Greek, meaning to initiate or to "close the mouth" and thus to keep a secret. This however is where the similarities between Wicca and Druidry cease to be. While yes the *mythic* amount of time it takes to stir the cauldrons of the self is indeed a year and a day, there is certainly nothing secret or exclusive about it. Any initiate must emerge from the bellies of their teacher(s) and into reality just as the Welsh Bard Taliesin did. Celtic and Druid teachings are not secret. This is why I prefer Druidry to say Wicca. I simply don't have to take anyone's word for anything which perhaps is where some of these misconceptions are coming from in the first place. The year and a day training cycle simply isn't meant to exclude anyone, witch or wiccan, solitary or coven, Druid or Celt, anyone who is willing can make the journey from ignorance as given by Amergin the white knee in the cauldron of Poesy. I read somewhere once that the difference between initiation and orgasm is that you can't fake initiation, thats not only true its funny! Initiation is an inner, intensely personal experience which effects us from the very core, from the very cells and molecules, to the outer body everything is changed forever. While others like priests and priestesses, animals, spirits and the like can be guides, we each make our personal journeys alone. When I say a druid initiates I don't mean that they *are initiated* which says someone knows something you don't, or has some power over you or something else that you don't have, such relationships are of a passive nature and not for a Druid mind IMHO. Besides, if a Druid is the priest...Who is gonna do the initiating? I have said before and maintain that self initiation is every bit as valid and profound as group initiation. As someone who has experienced both I will say neither are necessarily more profound, or "better" than the other, simply that I know my personal philosophies on the subject have changed profoundly in the last 7 years. More on this subject as it comes to mind... Síochán leat! Senbecc
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Post by wren on Jan 22, 2007 16:41:44 GMT -5
*peeks out from behind the curtain* Is it safe?
Well, opening this can of worms, are we? Here's my take on this very sensitive and seemingly controversial issue...
In nature-based cultures, there seem to be those shaman, druids, medicine men, etc., who would facilitate initiations of those at a cross-roads... This is something our own culture lacks and which, I believe has lead to lost youth for many. Often teens in particular look for that 'initiation' to adulthood and their search can lead them down dangerous roads. Our souls long for those transformations and initiations and will seek them wherever we might be hiding. Opportunity isn't all that knocks. The soul waits at the door of change as well.
I have not had the good fortune to have mentor or teacher on my journey. I have found much guidance through study. I have gained a great deal of knowledge through the course that I took. I have discussed and debated here and elsewhere. But, when the moment came, I was alone. All alone.
Transformation and intitiation often go hand in hand. Sometimes, they do not. For me, for my own opinion and on my own journey, I believe that true initiation is personal, private and internal. It is not the gaining of a membership into a club but achieving a higher state of enlightenment. From that moment, perhaps you are ready for the next stage of education within the group with whom you've chosen to practice your spirituality. But, whatever happened, you became the butterfly from the caterpiller and you emerged from your own private cocoon. No one can do that work for you.
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Post by Senbecc on Jan 22, 2007 17:14:40 GMT -5
*peeks out from behind the curtain* Is it safe? Well, opening this can of worms, are we? Here's my take on this very sensitive and seemingly controversial issue... I'm actually thinking of posting this in the PC just to see how many bite, gnaw, and chew at it. The soul or spirit, often flows like water, but also can soar like the hawk...Or the Wren. We definitely lack structure for youth, we reach out for those defining moments that tell us we have truly achieved something, that we have earned recognition in the work we've done. Many will not like this particular topic, simply because of the more popular Wiccan veiw of needing to BE initiated, which keeps the mysteries tied to it. However isn't the whole point of a spiritual practice magical practice, or religion to see through the veil of mystery? As was I Wren, but in the end we are alone in such things. As have said many times, in the quest for Draíocht knowledge can come from a mentor, straight from the gods, or and be completely self guided. The knowledge of the ancestors lies within each, and we have a learning tool the ancients didn't have...The net! Many druids, like those of our grove for example will initiate several times over the course of a lifetime, these can take place as literal journeys, like when I was planning my nine day journey in Custer state park. It is a passage rite for lack of a better term. My journey ended up being far far farrr more profound after Charlie died and I became standing Ollamh, so I suppose last night's initiation and following ritual were more of an unforeseen nature than some of the others...But certainly every bit as profound...If not more so!
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Post by wren on Jan 22, 2007 17:21:29 GMT -5
I truly believe we can be transformed and/or initiated more than once in our lifetime. In being open to those possibilities, we open ourselves up to those changes. As I will do in my vision quest, we can seek them out, like you said it can be a physical journey. Or, it can be the result of a 'dark night of the soul', something you and I both know well.
I think the issue here may just be one of semantics. Personally, I see 'initiation' as the acceptance of a transformation and the 'becoming' we seek as druids. I do not see it as a 'rite' as it is viewed in wicca. We are, perhaps, using the same word for two very different things?
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Post by KittyLane on Jan 22, 2007 17:25:18 GMT -5
i think the reason so many who come to the pagan side of the fence, still seek the baptism of religion. (so to speak.) when you accept jesus into your heart, you get "saved". (a form of initiation.) and again when you are a member of the church you get, "baptised" in the water, or a lake. going from your old sinner self to the new improved clean soul. so when people are seeking in this new path they want to be a part of something. ( this is hard to do i know.) you look, and look, for others like your self. when there are none to be found you are left with, "self initiation." there will always be the debate of can you really self initiate? some will say yes, and they would be right. in some traditions this is allowed. then there are some that will absolutly dismiss you when you speak of self initiation. so is self initiation possible? depends!
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Post by wren on Jan 22, 2007 17:44:25 GMT -5
To me, the term 'self initiation' is redundant, though. What you speak of is a 'rite', an acceptance into a group. It is not the actual inner transformation that made one ready for such a rite. To me, the initiation is that 'becoming', not the joining of a group.
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Post by Senbecc on Jan 22, 2007 17:53:20 GMT -5
LoL, leave it to EK to find the debate in anything i think the reason so many who come to the pagan side of the fence, still seek the baptism of religion. (so to speak.) when you accept jesus into your heart, you get "saved". (a form of initiation.) and again when you are a member of the church you get, "baptised" in the water, or a lake. going from your old sinner self to the new improved clean soul. Ok...This I agree with, the term initiation means to begin something, or to originate. When a Baptist is baptized they begin their lives fresh with all the sins of their past washed away. I think initiation for Pagan purposes are pretty similar. OOOO! OK, As stated above the term initiate is something that means to originate, or to begin something a new. When a person begins their training in the Druid way, or a Wiccan trad. they take in knowledge of that tradition or path until they are ready to begin a new. In Wiccan philosophy however the only reason one would need to *BE* intiated would be because in that particular veiw, the new initiate requires a go-between of sorts, someone to make contact with the gods (goddess and god), which I can assure anyone isn't nessisary. You, me, Wren..Anyone is fully capable of speaking to the gods in our own ways and in our own times. As I said, priests and priestesses are simply guides who can do little more than show us the paths to enlightenment....So there
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Post by wren on Jan 23, 2007 1:51:17 GMT -5
Well, I take issue with two statments, John. I do not see druids as priests at all, they were more shamans in my opinion.
I also do not see initiation in the druid or shamanic sense to be anything like a rite to be accepted into a group.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Jan 23, 2007 1:52:48 GMT -5
so when people are seeking in this new path they want to be a part of something. ( this is hard to do i know.) you look, and look, for others like your self. when there are none to be found you are left with, "self initiation." there will always be the debate of can you really self initiate? some will say yes, and they would be right. in some traditions this is allowed. then there are some that will absolutly dismiss you when you speak of self initiation. so is self initiation possible? depends! I have to say.. I never came to this path seeking to "become part of something" I never went in search of other people who believed the same things.. I am on this path to find out who I am.. This is my personal journey.. It's about finding spiritual enrichment for my soul, not joining any club or fraternity... Therefore, why wouldn't I be able to self initiate? If I was Christian, I would do it the same way, not through a baptism, or anything like that.. The transformation is mine alone, no one elses.... that's how I feel about it... I agree with Wren on the matter... Blessings to all lala
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Jan 23, 2007 1:57:59 GMT -5
Well, I take issue with two statments, John. I do not see druids as priests at all, they were more shamans in my opinion. I also do not see initiation in the druid or shamanic sense to be anything like a rite to be accepted into a group. I'm not commenting on the Priest Part... But, I completely agree with you on the initiation in the druid or shamanic sense to be different... It's the personal journey and acceptance of self, the opening to the possibilities... (If I make sense... lol)
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Post by KittyLane on Jan 23, 2007 23:43:02 GMT -5
so when people are seeking in this new path they want to be a part of something. ( this is hard to do i know.) you look, and look, for others like your self. when there are none to be found you are left with, "self initiation." there will always be the debate of can you really self initiate? some will say yes, and they would be right. in some traditions this is allowed. then there are some that will absolutly dismiss you when you speak of self initiation. so is self initiation possible? depends! I have to say.. I never came to this path seeking to "become part of something" I never went in search of other people who believed the same things.. I am on this path to find out who I am.. This is my personal journey.. It's about finding spiritual enrichment for my soul, not joining any club or fraternity... Therefore, why wouldn't I be able to self initiate? If I was Christian, I would do it the same way, not through a baptism, or anything like that.. The transformation is mine alone, no one elses.... that's how I feel about it... I agree with Wren on the matter... Blessings to all lala i know for druids, its not about the path. so initiation for a druid is different than ones of say a wiccan.
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Post by KittyLane on Jan 24, 2007 0:01:04 GMT -5
LoL, leave it to EK to find the debate in anything OOOO! OK, As stated above the term initiate is something that means to originate, or to begin something a new. When a person begins their training in the Druid way, or a Wiccan trad. they take in knowledge of that tradition or path until they are ready to begin a new. In Wiccan philosophy however the only reason one would need to *BE* intiated would be because in that particular veiw, the new initiate requires a go-between of sorts, someone to make contact with the gods (goddess and god), which I can assure anyone isn't nessisary. You, me, Wren..Anyone is fully capable of speaking to the gods in our own ways and in our own times. As I said, priests and priestesses are simply guides who can do little more than show us the paths to enlightenment....So there thats not how i see it at all. yes i do feel i can communicate with the gods if i chose, i dont feel i must be a initiated anything to do that. There is an old debate within Wiccan circles about how one becomes Wiccan. Amongst most Traditionals, the consensus seems to be that Wiccans are initiated into one's path, and that there is no such thing as an uninitiated Wicca, as it is the act of initiation itself that makes one a Wiccan.This idea is much contested amongst non-Traditional Wiccans for a variety of reasons, though the most oft quoted is usually the notion that only the Gods can make Wiccans, not other Wiccans. By this logic, a solitary practitioner could circle alone in the presence of his Gods and perform a perfectly valid initiation rite into the tradition of Wicca. I have to admit that this was a contention of mine for a long time. If Wicca is a religion wherein its practitioners answer to the Divine and wherein the individual is generally encouraged to be self-actualized, it seems incongruent to simultaneously require that to become a Wiccan you can only do so through the venues provided by other people. The contradiction seemed huge to me. The Traditionals, however, were not swayed by this argument, claiming that Wicca was indeed an initiatory religion, and that by definition one had to initiate into something. One could not initiate himself, for what would he be joining if he did so? The concession was made that individuals could perhaps self-dedicate to a path, but whether or not that made one truly a Wiccan is still debated. However, the complication for me ultimately was the question of what exactly is an initiatory tradition. This seems to be a fairly central tenet among a lot of Traditionals, and yet the concept is rarely deeply explored outside of Traditional circles. If an initiatory tradition is defined as any tradition that requires some sort of initiation rite for membership, then this doesn't make Wicca particularly special. Law school graduates, foreigners seeking citizenship, couples seeking a marriage all have to go through an initiatory rite before their journey can culminate in their goal, be it a license to practice law, naturalization or marriage. If this is all that is meant by an initiatory tradition, why is there such a fuss made over it? Initiation, however, is more than merely a rite performed to embrace an individual into a group (More on this later). An initiation is a beginning, and an initiatory path is a tradition in which the many "little beginnings" that make up life are given a spiritual context. Life is about the journey, and along the way, small (or major) things happen which forever change the course of one's life, marking the beginning of a new segment of the journey. Getting married, having a child, fulfilling a dream, choosing a Deity--all of these things can be profound initiatory experiences, and in most spiritual paths, those initiations are very important. Wicca, as a proclaimed initiatory tradition, recognizes these markings as opportune times to recognize Deity in the moment, to envision oneself in relationship to major mythologic themes, and thus better relate to God and the community. When one is initiated into Wicca, whether by a coven, Temple, or the Gods (and ultimately, all spiritual initiations must come from the Gods. The question is really whether there will be any other attendants at the event) he/she takes on the commitment of a life of change and unfamiliarity. An initiatory tradition requires us to look at the self, see what needs changing, and to make those changes. It also means, however, that if we don't do that for ourselves, the Gods will happily do it for us. Stagnation will kill us--we have to be dynamic and evolving. The initiation rite jump starts this process, but a daily communion with God almost ensures that the changes will continue. This is true of any communion with God, not merely interaction that occurs within an initiatory construct. However, in such a construct there are usually rites of passage that coincide with the changes that we make in our lives which mark that we are indeed making a "new beginning". In a way, these rites and rituals are part of the co-creative process--they not only mark the change that we are undergoing but to contribute to it, turning our spiritual eyes toward our mundane life and vice versa. The ritual becomes yet another pact with Deity to live a certain way and to continue to grow and change. Yet the other aspect of initiation, that aspect of being initiated into something still warrants consideration. While some people have criticized Traditional takes on initiation as a requirement as elitist, other religions require similar processes without suffering such critique. For example, both Catholicism and Judaism require converts to take specific classes and undergo a particular process before one is embraced into the community. But this is the crux of it--these traditions embrace the individual into a community and expect the individual to maintain certain standards and abide by certain rules. For example, Jewish converts are expected to raise any future children as Jews, to perform the mitzvoth, to change his or her lifestyle to fit in with proper Jewish life (ie keeping kosher, eschewing the Christmas tree, obeying halacha etc.) The conversion process, or the rite of initiation, marks the individual as part of a community with the benefits and responsibilities that entails. It's for this reason in part that a rabbi will turn a seeker down three times before committing to accepting a candidate for conversion. The process of becoming and living as a Jew is an arduous one, and the commitment should never be taken lightly. Wiccan initiation, however, doesn't seem to carry the same kind of weight with regard to community. Outside of coven life, for example, there is hardly such a thing as a Wiccan community, and even within many covens there is nothing similar to the notion of the Jewish, Catholic, or Mormon community if for no other reason than the average coven lacks the numbers to offer the same kind of support as a church or synagogue. The familial notion within Wicca is seemingly non-existent. When an individual comes to Wicca, she pledges to give her life in service to the Gods. She is not, however, required to raise her children a specific way or to change her lifestyle according to any standards except as mandated by herself or her Gods. (I'm sure the requirements vary from coven to coven, but to become Wiccan one is generally not asked to make serious lifestyle changes, such as a change in eating habits or cultural identification) She is not, by and large, being adopted into a clan. Her initiation is a binding contract between herself and Deity--fraternal community may not be part of the deal. It certainly can be, especially where a coven is involved, but the inherently insular and highly autonomous nature of Wicca makes communal liability and responsibility very difficult. A second difficulty that Wiccans or would-be Wiccans face, which doesn't plague Catholic, Jewish, or Mormon converts, is that Wiccan covens are not readily available, especially not if the seeker is seeking out a particular tradition. Covens may be all but invisible to those who don't know where to look, and even for those somewhat connected to the community, a secretive and oath-bound coven may hide right out in the open. Some people have made the argument that if the seeker is truly meant to walk this path, he or she will be led to the right group at the right time. While such serendipity would certainly be nice, it is doubtful that this is the case for each and every person who seeks, and even more doubtful for someone who doesn't yet know that they are seeking. Although Wicca is certainly gaining media attention and becoming more mainstream, there are still plenty of people who have never heard of our religion, and among those who have, many of those have gross misconceptions about what we do and believe. Many seekers will try several different paths if those paths are readily available and come with a built-in community with which to study, form bonds, and worship. But the Wiccan coven is not a "community", and yet we still expect them to be treated as such.This is part of the problem that Wicca faces as it "grows up". The initiatory element of Wicca is an important one, and distinguishes it as distinctly different from both Abrahamic and Eastern faiths. Marking the phases of individual lives and noting the changes and stages of initiation closely aligns us with the changing of the Wheel, for example, or the hero in any of the numerous Hero myths. However, an initiatory tradition does require some kind of community--someone with whom to share the joy and grief inherent in leaving on phase behind and moving on to another, and a community which can prepare the individual for the changes he or she may be embarking upon. In the western world this has historically been one of the major contributions of organized religion. Each individual is placed within a context with an immediate community with which to worship, to mourn, and from which to learn. There is a common language amongst practitioners, a common symbology and a sense of security. The religious community acts as an extended family, as exemplified in the Christian phrase "brothers and sisters in Christ". This is not to imply, however, that there cannot or should not be solitary Wiccans. Not everyone wishes to be part of community. However, those who assert that initiation is a requirement for Wicca and those who see the benefit of keeping Wicca as an intitiatory tradition would do well to encourage community and to make it possible for community to blossom. When the individual makes a commitment to initiate into Wicca and therefore to endure a series of marked initiations throughout the duration of his/her life, there should be, should he/she desire it, a community to embrace her, to encourage, teach and lead her. www.tangledmoon.org/fisher-initiation.htmits all about which trad you are and your personal choices.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Jan 24, 2007 0:01:14 GMT -5
i know for druids, its not about the path. so initiation for a druid is different than ones of say a wiccan. Looks around....yep, I thought that I was in the Druid Boards...just wanted to make sure.... Now, How can you say that for Druids it's not about the path? Can you please clarify what it is that you are trying to say here? Because forgive me, but, I must not be smart enough to grasp what it is that you are saying... Now.. Once again.. this is self initiation to a spiritual path of ones own choosing... It's between the individual and their god/goddess/ Belief system... I really care not what anyones beliefs are... It's a personal choice, and, I see no reason why someone of any path... again, "ANY" Path would not be able to Self initiate.. As I said before, this is about spiritual beliefs, not the joining of a fraternity or sorority....
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Post by KittyLane on Jan 24, 2007 0:10:57 GMT -5
My first thought is that to be Druid is like breathing. It is not something you put on or take off as you consider it. Rather it infuses and becomes a part of you and you a part of it, at all times, conscious or not. There is not a separate God or Goddess, all things are connected and interconnected. So, is it a religion or a way of living? My second thought is that there is no "super"natural. All things simply... are. Like you, I find the term "supernatural" a little silly. If all things are of nature then how can anything ever be supernatural? For me, Druidic study is a life long quest for knowledge of the tenants of Fionn's shield, and the draíocht it offers in it's five rings. I see these circles within circles as a continuation of knowledge from the beginning of the turning of Amergin's cauldrons to many skilled assimulation of everything. i think we are saying the same basic thing here, just in different ways. i quoted this because i felt it laid out alot of what i was trying to say about druidism. about it being a way of living.
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Post by Senbecc on Jan 24, 2007 0:25:26 GMT -5
Well, I take issue with two statments, John. I do not see druids as priests at all, they were more shamans in my opinion. I also do not see initiation in the druid or shamanic sense to be anything like a rite to be accepted into a group. While Shamanism is certainly a very big part of being a Druid, Druids were definitely the priests of the Celtic people as given by most of the sources you will read. And no, I agree with this second statement, I see initiation as a point of origin, a rite of passage.
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