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Post by Senbecc on Jan 24, 2007 0:29:01 GMT -5
i know for druids, its not about the path. so initiation for a druid is different than ones of say a wiccan. Looks around....yep, I thought that I was in the Druid Boards...just wanted to make sure.... Now, How can you say that for Druids it's not about the path? Can you please clarify what it is that you are trying to say here? Because forgive me, but, I must not be smart enough to grasp what it is that you are saying... Now.. Once again.. this is self initiation to a spiritual path of ones own choosing... It's between the individual and their god/goddess/ Belief system... I really care not what anyones beliefs are... It's a personal choice, and, I see no reason why someone of any path... again, "ANY" Path would not be able to Self initiate.. As I said before, this is about spiritual beliefs, not the joining of a fraternity or sorority.... This board is open to all, I welcome the questions. Druidic knowledge must always stand up to the scrutiny of inquiry, and debate.
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Post by wren on Jan 24, 2007 0:31:22 GMT -5
Well, I take issue with two statments, John. I do not see druids as priests at all, they were more shamans in my opinion. I also do not see initiation in the druid or shamanic sense to be anything like a rite to be accepted into a group. While Shamanism is certainly a very big part of being a Druid, Druids were definitely the priests of the Celtic people as given by most of the sources you will read. And no, I agree with this second statement, I see initiation as a point of origin, a rite of passage. I think my problem with seeing a druid as a priest is that for me I see a Catholic priest and I cannot see a druid in that sense at all. Because I do not see Celtic spirituality in any way the same as the World Religions, I cannot see a druid as a priest in that sense. I think you and I are in agreement on initiation, though.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Jan 24, 2007 0:33:43 GMT -5
Looks around....yep, I thought that I was in the Druid Boards...just wanted to make sure.... Now, How can you say that for Druids it's not about the path? Can you please clarify what it is that you are trying to say here? Because forgive me, but, I must not be smart enough to grasp what it is that you are saying... Now.. Once again.. this is self initiation to a spiritual path of ones own choosing... It's between the individual and their god/goddess/ Belief system... I really care not what anyones beliefs are... It's a personal choice, and, I see no reason why someone of any path... again, "ANY" Path would not be able to Self initiate.. As I said before, this is about spiritual beliefs, not the joining of a fraternity or sorority.... This board is open to all, I welcome the questions. Druidic knowledge must always stand up to the scrutiny of inquiry, and debate. I appologize, I was addressing the comment that was made about Druidism not being about the path and it being different from other things.... It wont happen again
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Post by Senbecc on Jan 24, 2007 0:40:02 GMT -5
LoL, leave it to EK to find the debate in anything OOOO! OK, As stated above the term initiate is something that means to originate, or to begin something a new. When a person begins their training in the Druid way, or a Wiccan trad. they take in knowledge of that tradition or path until they are ready to begin a new. In Wiccan philosophy however the only reason one would need to *BE* intiated would be because in that particular veiw, the new initiate requires a go-between of sorts, someone to make contact with the gods (goddess and god), which I can assure anyone isn't nessisary. You, me, Wren..Anyone is fully capable of speaking to the gods in our own ways and in our own times. As I said, priests and priestesses are simply guides who can do little more than show us the paths to enlightenment....So there OK, so it seems we're on the same track after all EK, if you call the gods to an initiation, then is this not self-initiation? As much as I'm sure traditionalists would like to believe that they coined the term "initiate" I can assure you that they didn't. People have been initiating into rites of manhood, and many other things for quite a while...As for what they'd be joining, I suppose they'd be joining a family. I agree. Your proving my point lol, so I'll leave the post here for now. Look at some of the other responces and get back to it later.
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Post by KittyLane on Jan 24, 2007 0:41:47 GMT -5
LOL so there is no debate?
its all about how you say things you know? it might mean one thing in this language and the same thing in another. but they are still two different languages.
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Post by Der Trommler on Jan 24, 2007 9:35:16 GMT -5
So, I must say this is an open can of worms! I must say that I concur with both sides of initiation. First, for many people, they need a feeling of accomplishment & aknowledgement of such. Whether it's age, religion, or even studies, we like that feeling of people celebrating that accomplishment. Take, for instance, Bar Mitzvah. That is a rite of passage of entering adulthood. The Sweet 16 party many parents give their daughters....Graduating high school or college. They all invite a rite of passage. It's that need to belong & feel they've accomplished something. It's also the need to have someone say to them that they are ready. They have learned what they needed to ascend to the next level. Look at most video games & you see levels & treasure. Anything to make the gamer feel they have accompished what they needed to ascend. It's been in human's way of life for longer than I would even dare to think about Second, some people do not need this. They have no issues with who they are. So, titles, rites of passage, anything of the sort become less needed. They, to me, are more free spirits. Uninhibited to the chains of labels. Now, for me, while I do like people recognizing something I've done, my life has always been low key for anything. It's more that I have a personality that does not need accolades or someone patting me on the back. I know what I can do & have done. I will do what I want when I want or need. So, I had already thought that I was going to be doing a self-initiation. I have not really felt which path to follow. Rather, I am just going wherever, wherever leads me. So, I learn & move on. But I am curiously dancing a balancing act on this fence of self-initiation.....I am probably going to do it, but also see others points against it....
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Post by Der Trommler on Jan 24, 2007 9:43:05 GMT -5
Ooh, one other thing....I think that druids are priests/priestesses in their own right. It's kind of difficult to explain but if we take out the symbolism of the word priest: A priest or priestess is a person having the authority or power to perform and administer religious rites; and in particular, rites of sacrifice to the Deity or Deities. Their office or position is the priesthood, a term which may also apply to such persons collectively (got this from here) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest So, in respect, a druid would be considered a priest/priestess in their own right. Therefore, I would be able to agree on both accounts (as I understand the symbolic word priest automatically receives a vision of the Roman Catholic men in black & white)
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Post by wren on Jan 24, 2007 11:06:19 GMT -5
Moved to debate at the admin's request...
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Post by wren on Jan 24, 2007 12:00:28 GMT -5
So, I must say this is an open can of worms! I must say that I concur with both sides of initiation. First, for many people, they need a feeling of accomplishment & aknowledgement of such. Whether it's age, religion, or even studies, we like that feeling of people celebrating that accomplishment. Take, for instance, Bar Mitzvah. That is a rite of passage of entering adulthood. The Sweet 16 party many parents give their daughters....Graduating high school or college. They all invite a rite of passage. It's that need to belong & feel they've accomplished something. It's also the need to have someone say to them that they are ready. They have learned what they needed to ascend to the next level. Look at most video games & you see levels & treasure. Anything to make the gamer feel they have accompished what they needed to ascend. It's been in human's way of life for longer than I would even dare to think about Second, some people do not need this. They have no issues with who they are. So, titles, rites of passage, anything of the sort become less needed. They, to me, are more free spirits. Uninhibited to the chains of labels. Now, for me, while I do like people recognizing something I've done, my life has always been low key for anything. It's more that I have a personality that does not need accolades or someone patting me on the back. I know what I can do & have done. I will do what I want when I want or need. So, I had already thought that I was going to be doing a self-initiation. I have not really felt which path to follow. Rather, I am just going wherever, wherever leads me. So, I learn & move on. But I am curiously dancing a balancing act on this fence of self-initiation.....I am probably going to do it, but also see others points against it.... I agree with the idea of a rite or ritual accepting one into a group or marking something like a graduation is the Western understanding of initiation. I also agree that many people seek this rite for a sense that they belong to something larger than themselves. However, in terms of shamanic work and soulcrafting, initiation is a purely personal internal journey that marks the 'becoming' of one into a state of further enlightenment and wisdom. This is done alone, within and is often something never spoken of aloud. This is true for any who make this journey, whether they be druid or not.
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Post by wren on Jan 24, 2007 12:56:13 GMT -5
Ooh, one other thing....I think that druids are priests/priestesses in their own right. It's kind of difficult to explain but if we take out the symbolism of the word priest: A priest or priestess is a person having the authority or power to perform and administer religious rites; and in particular, rites of sacrifice to the Deity or Deities. Their office or position is the priesthood, a term which may also apply to such persons collectively (got this from here) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest So, in respect, a druid would be considered a priest/priestess in their own right. Therefore, I would be able to agree on both accounts (as I understand the symbolic word priest automatically receives a vision of the Roman Catholic men in black & white) You're absolutely right and I appreciate that you added that definition. Yes, Druids were priests in that sense. Just hard to get that other image out of the head sometimes!
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Post by Der Trommler on Jan 25, 2007 9:38:52 GMT -5
That's why I have to agree for both sides of the argument. The definition would fit as well as the image would not. So, I think that if someone wanted to say such, I couldn't really fully disagree. At best, play devil's advocate.
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 1, 2007 19:17:59 GMT -5
*bump*
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Post by tanath on Feb 11, 2007 18:49:55 GMT -5
i'll just copy/paste what i posted on myspace. i'm lazy *shrugs* i see self-initiation as every bit important and meaningful as group-initiation. when you think about it, there is some form of self-initiation that takes placers long before a group-initiation can occur. there has to be the instant or moment of decision when you decide that the pagan path is for you. after that it only makes sense to follow-up with knowledge and the almost inevitable ritual, spell, or meditation work. any of these, and several other options, can be considered an initiation. there are, in fact, meanings of the word initiation that most people don't know or think about when they hear the word. 1. The condition of being knowledgeable. 2. the act of starting something for the first time; introducing something new; "she looked forward to her initiation as an adult"; "the foundation of a new scientific society"; "he regards the fork as a modern introduction" 3. wisdom as evidenced by the possession of knowledge; "his knowledgeability impressed me"; "his dullness was due to lack of initiation" 4. an act that sets in motion some course of events 5. The first stage of tumor induction by a carcinogen in which cells are altered so that they are likely to form a tumor upon subsequent exposure to a promoting agent. (i know, this one makes no sense here but i found it interesting.) i got all those definitions from dictionary.reference.com/browse/initiation so you know i'm not making things up. that all being said i will say one more thing. i haven't been initiated into a group. i haven't decided if i will ever be or what group that might be. i did have a small initiation for myself to dedicate myself to my new religion and path.
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Post by tanath on Feb 11, 2007 18:59:25 GMT -5
I have to say.. I never came to this path seeking to "become part of something" I never went in search of other people who believed the same things.. I am on this path to find out who I am.. This is my personal journey.. It's about finding spiritual enrichment for my soul, not joining any club or fraternity... Therefore, why wouldn't I be able to self initiate? If I was Christian, I would do it the same way, not through a baptism, or anything like that.. The transformation is mine alone, no one elses.... that's how I feel about it... I agree with Wren on the matter... Blessings to all lala i came to paganism as a religion that could accept and approve of my sexuality and that i could truly belive in and accept for myself. i didn't go out looking for anyone else either. i ended up finding them along the way, and a couple even before i took that first step. i wanted somethign i could believe in without it rejecting me just for being who i am. for that i turned to wicca, because i already knew some of the basics and it had grabbed my attention fromt he start. as i studied i found other paths that attracted me in the same way. i've combined and regected and invented as i've gone along until i've come up with something that's much more me than any "pre-made" religion could ever be. community is great, but it's not what i was searching for. i was searching for me. religion is only a small part of that. for me, self-initiation is only the point at which one makes a conscious decision to devote themselves to a particular thing. in that case i am self-initiated several times over. not into a group, but into a new way of seeing and understanding myself and everything around me.
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 11, 2007 19:21:06 GMT -5
I have to say.. I never came to this path seeking to "become part of something" I never went in search of other people who believed the same things.. I am on this path to find out who I am.. This is my personal journey.. It's about finding spiritual enrichment for my soul, not joining any club or fraternity... Therefore, why wouldn't I be able to self initiate? If I was Christian, I would do it the same way, not through a baptism, or anything like that.. The transformation is mine alone, no one elses.... that's how I feel about it... I agree with Wren on the matter... Blessings to all lala i came to paganism as a religion that could accept and approve of my sexuality and that i could truly belive in and accept for myself. i didn't go out looking for anyone else either. i ended up finding them along the way, and a couple even before i took that first step. i wanted somethign i could believe in without it rejecting me just for being who i am. for that i turned to wicca, because i already knew some of the basics and it had grabbed my attention fromt he start. as i studied i found other paths that attracted me in the same way. i've combined and regected and invented as i've gone along until i've come up with something that's much more me than any "pre-made" religion could ever be. community is great, but it's not what i was searching for. i was searching for me. religion is only a small part of that. for me, self-initiation is only the point at which one makes a conscious decision to devote themselves to a particular thing. in that case i am self-initiated several times over. not into a group, but into a new way of seeing and understanding myself and everything around me. Unfortunately all to often religion is cast in stone, and stone IMHO isn't what a religious philosophy should be. All to often I find religions like Christianity, Wicca, and yes even Druidry and other Celtic systems at times seem to seek to confine the spirit by laying down their sets of laws that tell an individual what they can and can't do with their lives. Now don't get me wrong here, I do believe a particular path has the right to say whether it will be eclectic or not, and have certain ethics attached to it. However I don't believe a religious philosophy has the right to tell you who you can be attracted to sexually, where your personal interests will lie, or what you can think or do. To me spirituality is meant to conform to the spirit, and not the spirit conforming to the spirituality.
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