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Post by Senbecc on Aug 15, 2006 9:47:37 GMT -5
In a time long ago a species walked the earth never to be seen again. That species was Neanderthal man. He was mans older brother, both in their own way sons of creation, call it what you will, Allah, God, Goddess...Creation, Ireland. They were the duality that shaped the future...Some say they had forms of religion and Shamanism so I sometimes get tickled to heard people fighting over whats older and whats not when we're discussing such a wide spectrum of views.
Just think, if they did in fact interbreed...Even just once as they did in the book Clan of the Cave bear...As they aren't the fore bares of man like so many other species that passed before them in the last couple million years, the great and vast Genealogy that came before our pale need to validate...
This coupled with being out hunted and out smarted by the younger brother Man we have sort of a Cain n Able sort of position being taken...
What if both are true? All you need is one interbreeding and presto the marriage is complete.
I've also heard very hard times had fallen on the Neanderthal, that at times some clans didn't allow their children to live after birth, perhaps to save them from suffering through life...Is this something that a heartless animal does? Or did a species know the end was near? And if so had this soulless spirit talked to god?
That is a question I will save for Christians to answer. However what makes a sensible answer to me would be an astounding yes, as we are only a brush stroke in the picture, the goddess, god, the source of all things *is* the picture we make up and God is the creative force that is seen when the big picture is seen.
To me this is truth, let it be said that Senbecc Druid and Filidh walked in a time of Giants of great knowledge and wisdom. Titans of personal and universal truths who danced the three fold dance on one leg with me and joined us in our quest for knowledge and wisdom in what ever path we choose.
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Post by wren on Aug 15, 2006 12:19:09 GMT -5
Well said! This reminds me of my research on the Picts! Did they or didn't they? Well, why shouldn't they? There is a documentary on this very subject this week on Int-History Channel, with science (of course) trying to answer these same questions. They are going to show just how well-equipped the Neanderthals were to survive and some other finds regarding DNA. Brian Sykes has also shown direct links to modern residents from Cheddar Man in England. using DNA.
What I don't understand is that we could easily be a hybrid of all these people, yet so many shun that idea. That they died out altogether smacks of superiority again, of knowing what cannot be known through mere science... You know, 'primitive' people who didn't survive because they were soulless? How can science tell us that?
For me, I agree with you. They are welcome at my hearth, as are all of my ancestors.
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Post by Senbecc on Aug 16, 2006 16:37:09 GMT -5
Well said! This reminds me of my research on the Picts! Did they or didn't they? Well, why shouldn't they? There is a documentary on this very subject this week on Int-History Channel, with science (of course) trying to answer these same questions. They are going to show just how well-equipped the Neanderthals were to survive and some other finds regarding DNA. Brian Sykes has also shown direct links to modern residents from Cheddar Man in England. using DNA. What I don't understand is that we could easily be a hybrid of all these people, yet so many shun that idea. That they died out altogether smacks of superiority again, of knowing what cannot be known through mere science... You know, 'primitive' people who didn't survive because they were soulless? How can science tell us that? For me, I agree with you. They are welcome at my hearth, as are all of my ancestors. Well, I'm not entirly sure that science has made the claim Neanderthal man was actually souless, that I think would be a more Christian view since they arent human. As for tracing bloodlines and what not, I saw an interesting documentery a while back where they chose some random strangers and tested them to find out how many differnt bloodlines these random people had....Well, I'll just say there were some suprized "full blooded" people out there. The religion and beliefs of the Neanderthal are lost to us, perhaps for good reason and perhaps not...Who knows, maybe we can begin to reconstruct these and other paths as well if we each remain dilligent and focused, and learn to reconstruct views w/o fighting over which ones right, older, or other trivial dogmas of the like. Would be an interesting study...To say the least.
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Post by wren on Aug 20, 2006 15:56:31 GMT -5
Well, I'm not entirly sure that science has made the claim Neanderthal man was actually souless, that I think would be a more Christian view since they arent human. I was referring more to those who believe we could not possibly have evolved from soulless cavemen and use 'science' to prove their point. Not actual scientists, as you inferred in your post. The documentary is on the Int-History Channel tonight at 9pm EST (opposite the second to last ever Deadwood, of course). I'll watch and see if there is anything worth posting from it.
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Post by wren on Aug 21, 2006 11:43:38 GMT -5
Neanderthal - The Rebirth (documentary on The Science Channel on 8/21) The show opened with a brief summary of what was known. That in 1848, the first Neanderthal skull was found on Gibraltar, though no one knew just how significant a find it was or what it represented. Since then, remains of Neanderthals have been found from the Atlantic to the Himalayas. They spanned a time of 200,000 years ago to about 25,000 years ago when they essentially disappeared. Gary Sawyer, a expert reconstructionist from the American Museum of Natural History, put together an entire Neanderthal skeleton from the bones of three different sets of incomplete remains (no complete skeleton has ever been found). The finished composite skeleton provided the first glimpse of a Neanderthal man. He was 5'4" tall and powerfully built. His compact body included oddly flared ribs (unlike homo sapiens whose ribs flare slightly and then turn back again toward the midsection forming a waist. Experts theorized that the compact form and flared ribs allowed for heat retention in the Ice Age climate. Experiments with two men, one tall and thin, the other short and muscular, showed that this body type did retain heat to a much higher degree. However, such a form required high caloric intake. A small band of Neanderthals would need the equivalent of one red deer every two days (2x as many calories as we require). Hunting experts studied their flint arrowheads and explained that running and throwing of spears would not only expend far too many calories, it would have been impossible in the forest where Neanderthals lived and hunted. Muscle indications on the bones, however, showed that their forearms were extremely muscular, much more than ours, particularly on their favored side. So much so that the forearm bones actually bowed from being pulled by these powerful muscles. This showed that the hunters actually stalked their prey and thrust their spears to make the kill. Stealthy and silent, rather than fast, they were ambush hunters. Next, their brains were examined, by Ralph Holloway of Columbia University. He recreated the brain from the inside of the skull (I saw this done on the study of the 'hobbits' as well). The sample brain was 20% larger than our own but showed the same symmetry, with a favored right side just as we would if right-handed. The pre-frontal portions were essentially identical to ours, showing that these beings had similar cognitive abilities to homo sapiens. Next, they examined the hyoid bone, to see if the Neanderthal would have been able to speak, given that his brain and cognitive abilities were similar to ours. In recreating the throat, it was found to be shorter and wider from front to back, making it akin to a modern female homo sapien's anatomy. While this would assume a higher-pitched voice, the Neanderthal's wider rib cage, heavy skull and nasal cavity would also have affected voice pitch. Their conclusion? That Neanderthals were intelligent and probably spoke. So, why did they die out? The documentary pointed out that around 45,000 years ago, the climate of the world began to deteriorate. Rapid changes took place, sometimes in the span of 100 or even ten years. Forests began to die as well. This made it difficult or even impossible for the Neanderthals to ambush prey in the open spaces. Their style of hunting, coupled with pelvis and lower limb structure, made it nearly impossible for them to run after prey. Even if they had learned to make thrown spears from the homo sapiens as they arrived on the scene, they were not fast enough to chase the animals they hunted. Inner ear structure also indicated a difference in their agility, making such adaptations virtually impossible for the Neanderthals. They simply could not adapt the the world as it changed around them. About 25,000 years ago, they simply disappeared. What was not discussed was the possibility of interbreeding between homo sapiens and Neanderthals. No discussion of DNA similarities, for example. The experiment between the tall thin man and short stocky man made my husband wonder if there had been, given the two widely different modern body types and those being inherited traits? I've also heard very hard times had fallen on the Neanderthal, that at times some clans didn't allow their children to live after birth, perhaps to save them from suffering through life...Is this something that a heartless animal does? Or did a species know the end was near? And if so had this soulless spirit talked to god? If they were intelligent, they knew their world was changing. If they could not hunt, they would have begun to starve. If they saw others arrive who could hunt and provide for their families, what would they have done?
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