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Post by tanath on Feb 20, 2007 23:24:37 GMT -5
now THAT was a debate. no yelling. no accusations. no insults. just opinions with cited facts to back them up.
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Post by KittyLane on Feb 21, 2007 4:03:51 GMT -5
LOL thats the truth. Thats how you debate folks!!! We debated and backed up our opinions, and had fun. rock on!
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 21, 2007 5:12:33 GMT -5
now THAT was a debate. no yelling. no accusations. no insults. just opinions with cited facts to back them up. I'd like to see all our debates go this way, but there will always be the heated ones as well from time to time. Glad you enjoyed it
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 21, 2007 5:35:33 GMT -5
what you laughing at? LOL why is it always wicca that gets picked on? lol really! Gardnerian - This is the tradition founded by Gerald Gardner, brought public in 1951, and is considered one of the main "root" traditions for BTW. The coven is the basis of all Gardnerian organization with each coven having it's own personality. Gender polarity is an essential hallmark, with almost everything arranged male to female, female to male. The original work of Gerald and his High Priestesses is preserved unchanged as the required core material, with expansion and creativity encouraged as long each legacy is identified appropriately. Other identifying hallmarks are that strict initiatory procedures are followed, ritual nudity is required, and there is no laity recognized. www.homecircle.info/LinksOther.html From the best that anyone can prove, Gerald Gardner invented modern Wicca using bits and pieces of folklore, ceremonial magic, spiritualism, and odds and ends. So our Old Religion appears to be no older than about 50 years old. But just to keep a bit of mystery in the subject... recent review of the records in London has shown that there was a woman named Dorothy Clutterbuck who was born in India, was the right age to be the woman who initiated Gardner, and who was living in the right area of England at the time that Gardner was there.So where does that leave us. Well, you can always go on taking the myth at face value. Be honest with yourself. We aren't practicing the same religion our ancestors practiced. I follow a Celtic path, but I certainly don't practice human sacrifice or read the future in the entrails of a sheep. In many cases, such as the Celts, no one knows how they practiced their religion since none of it was ever written down.
So does it matter if this isn't that Old Time Religion the myths say it is? I mean, every religion was new once upon a time! I say that if it meets your spiritual needs, if it connects you with the Divine, if it benefits the community, it doesn't matter whether a religion is a million years old or invented last Tuesday.www.tangledmoon.org/wiccan_myth.htmi178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/PAGANMYSTICSAVATARS/22-1.gif[/img] so come on lets all love one another for the individuals we are! like it says everything and everyone was new(to life, to your path) once! [/quote] Well human sacrifice was illeagle by brehon law, and I'd be interested in their evidence that any Celtic culture practiced human sacrifice, as the only accounts I know of were second hand Gallic accounts which wern't addressing Druids anyway. LoL, was it not? I've been reading allot of stuff for nothing then lol. In fact we do KNOW that when Patrick came to Ireland that he burned libraries of books which were Druidic in nature. Not to mention the 12 books of poetry which told the deeds of the Irish heros. While I agree we have lost much, but we are not nearly as in the dark as this person seems to be trying to discover. Again this is fine, just don't flame others for being eclectic if their path is eclectic...Thats all I'm saying. India? I would have thought it would be the Isle of Mann. Secondly there is no proof that the two even knew eachother from what I understand...I'm sorry but I have to stand by what I said. *If* Wicca is some missing link between old Celtic ways and the new, then why is there no proof?
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Post by KittyLane on Feb 24, 2007 9:18:29 GMT -5
YOU MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT I FORGOT.... but I didn't.... so... maybe we should stop saying wicca, and refer to witchcraft. because as long as history has stood, the two have been connected. is it because of the similarities? or the time periods? who knows... But they are always together. ok sigh, let me say again that wicca, just wicca is not eclectic. Now if you are a eclectic wiccan who by definition draws from other wiccan paths, that is Eclectic! are there not different paths of druid? ones that have branched off? or what? LOL Celtic ritual life centered on a special class, called the druides or "druids" by the Romans, presumably from a Gaulish word. Although much has been written about druids and Celtic ritual practice, we know next to nothing about either. Here's what we can gather. As a special group, the druids performed many of the functions that we would consider "priestly" functions, including ritual and sacrifice, but they also included functions that we would place under "education" and "law." These rituals and practices were probably kept secret—a tradition common among early Indo-European peoples—which helps to explain why the classical world knows nothing about them. The only thing that the classical sources attest is that the druids performed "barbaric" or "horrid" rituals at lakes and groves; there was a fair amount of consensus among the Greeks and Romans that these rituals involved human sacrifice. This may or may not be true; there is some evidence of human sacrifice among the Celts, but it does not seem to have been a prevalent practice. According to Julius Caesar, who gives the longest account of druids, the center of Celtic belief was the passing of souls from one body to another. From an archaeological perspective, it is clear that the Celts believed in an after-life, for material goods are buried with the dead. www.wsu.edu/~dee/MA/CELTS.HTMhmm? interesting. true? who is to say?
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Post by Der Trommler on Feb 24, 2007 12:41:56 GMT -5
[quote author=evilkitty12582 board=miscellaneous thread=1170201223 post=1172326709
According to Julius Caesar, who gives the longest account of druids, the center of Celtic belief was the passing of souls from one body to another. From an archaeological perspective, it is clear that the Celts believed in an after-life, for material goods are buried with the dead. www.wsu.edu/~dee/MA/CELTS.HTM
hmm? interesting. true? who is to say?
[/quote] Ok, who stole my stuff!!!! When I find that person....!!! [/color]
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Post by KittyLane on Feb 25, 2007 12:46:27 GMT -5
[quote author=evilkitty12582 board=miscellaneous thread=1170201223 post=1172326709
According to Julius Caesar, who gives the longest account of druids, the center of Celtic belief was the passing of souls from one body to another. From an archaeological perspective, it is clear that the Celts believed in an after-life, for material goods are buried with the dead. www.wsu.edu/~dee/MA/CELTS.HTM
hmm? interesting. true? who is to say?
Ok, who stole my stuff!!!! When I find that person....!!! [/color][/quote] what?
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 25, 2007 16:48:55 GMT -5
YOU MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT I FORGOT.... but I didn't.... so... I would agree the religion of Witchcraft (i.e. Wicca) are indeed connected. Like Wicca, Witchcraft embodied the practices of several different times and cultures. I actually think Gardner knew this when he put together the actual religion. However the actual practices of Witchcraft were not eclectic given that the practices were those of a given culture. Wicca however (speaking of the religion) is a religious philosophy which ties these cultural practices together, while the philosophy may be a sound one, and while the original product may not be seen as being eclectic, I just don't see what other view, or word one can use to describe it. When you take two or more views, and mix them you become eclectic. Oh yes, there are Welsh Druids, Irish Druids, Scottish, Manx, and the list goes on. Druidry is however a cultural practice and is *usually* kept to Celtic ways. Now, Wicca Kitty is eclectic because it draws several practices into the mix. As cited before some of these would be, but are not limited to the Classical Greek elements, four Celtic Sabbats, four Latin sabbats, Eastern Karmic views, Kabbalist views, and I have no doubt the list goes on. Now I have no doubt that the finished product for its followers doesn't appear to be eclectic but by definition it is eclectic which is why I took issue with the original post make statements like "Make it up as you go along" posts. Celtic ritual life centered on a special class, called the druides or "druids" by the Romans, presumably from a Gaulish word. Although much has been written about druids and Celtic ritual practice, we know next to nothing about either. Here's what we can gather. As a special group, the druids performed many of the functions that we would consider "priestly" functions, including ritual and sacrifice, but they also included functions that we would place under "education" and "law." These rituals and practices were probably kept secret—a tradition common among early Indo-European peoples—which helps to explain why the classical world knows nothing about them. The only thing that the classical sources attest is that the druids performed "barbaric" or "horrid" rituals at lakes and groves; there was a fair amount of consensus among the Greeks and Romans that these rituals involved human sacrifice. This may or may not be true; there is some evidence of human sacrifice among the Celts, but it does not seem to have been a prevalent practice. According to Julius Caesar, who gives the longest account of druids, the center of Celtic belief was the passing of souls from one body to another. From an archaeological perspective, it is clear that the Celts believed in an after-life, for material goods are buried with the dead. www.wsu.edu/~dee/MA/CELTS.HTMhmm? interesting. true? who is to say? OK, you've forced my hand. I feel that the Celts practiced human sacrifice as we do here in the west. What the Celts were doing was public execution, I have seen lethal injections performed here on the net as well as TV...Human sacrifice? OK, everyone feel that the Gallic Druids preformed Human sacrifice, and with this post I hope to put that to bed. Here is the quote is from book six of Caesar's accounts in Gaul... "The whole nation of Gaul is greatly devoted to ritual observances, and for that reason those who are smitten with the more grievous maladies and are engaged in the perils of battle either sacrifice human victims or vow to do so, employing Druids as ministers for such sacrifices. They believe in effect, that unless for a man's life a man's life be paid, the majesty of the immortal gods may not be appeased and in public as in private life they observe an ordinance of sacrifices of the same kind. Others use figures of immense size who's limbs, woven out of twigs they fill with living men and set on fire and the men perish in a sheet of flame. They believe that the execution of those who have been caught in the act of theft or robbery or some other crime is more pleasing to the immortal gods. However when supply of such fails they resort to the execution even of the innocent." Firstly, it is important for us to remember that Julius Caesar was drawing from second hand accounts and was down on Druids even more than the Celts themselves, though he was further down on them after his defeat I Britain after Gaul I think...However lets study Caesar's actual words. From the first sentence it becomes clear that Caesar is speaking on the Celtic nation as a whole and not Druids specifically. Now we also know the Druids of Gaul were exempt from war due to another quote which is: "Druids usually hold aloof from war and do not pay taxes with the rest. They are excused from military service and excused from all liabilities. Tempted by these rewards, many young men assemble by their own motion to receive training, many sent by parents or relitives..." Yet in the earlier quote Caesar specifically says "It was those engaged in the perils of battle" who were performing the sacrifice in question. This couldn't then have been the military exempt Druids. He even goes on to confirm when he tells us the Druids were being employed as ministers of such sacrifices. They were more-over acting as ministers and on behalf of the ordinary people in a public execution than the conspirators of a human sacrifice.
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Post by KittyLane on Feb 25, 2007 23:31:40 GMT -5
I would agree the religion of Witchcraft (i.e. Wicca) are indeed connected. Like Wicca, Witchcraft embodied the practices of several different times and cultures. I actually think Gardner knew this when he put together the actual religion. However the actual practices of Witchcraft were not eclectic given that the practices were those of a given culture. Wicca however (speaking of the religion) is a religious philosophy which ties these cultural practices together, while the philosophy may be a sound one, and while the original product may not be seen as being eclectic, I just don't see what other view, or word one can use to describe it. When you take two or more views, and mix them you become eclectic. Oh yes, there are Welsh Druids, Irish Druids, Scottish, Manx, and the list goes on. Druidry is however a cultural practice and is *usually* kept to Celtic ways. Now, Wicca Kitty is eclectic because it draws several practices into the mix. As cited before some of these would be, but are not limited to the Classical Greek elements, four Celtic Sabbats, four Latin sabbats, Eastern Karmic views, Kabbalist views, and I have no doubt the list goes on. Now I have no doubt that the finished product for its followers doesn't appear to be eclectic but by definition it is eclectic which is why I took issue with the original post make statements like "Make it up as you go along" posts. Celtic ritual life centered on a special class, called the druides or "druids" by the Romans, presumably from a Gaulish word. Although much has been written about druids and Celtic ritual practice, we know next to nothing about either. Here's what we can gather. As a special group, the druids performed many of the functions that we would consider "priestly" functions, including ritual and sacrifice, but they also included functions that we would place under "education" and "law." These rituals and practices were probably kept secret—a tradition common among early Indo-European peoples—which helps to explain why the classical world knows nothing about them. The only thing that the classical sources attest is that the druids performed "barbaric" or "horrid" rituals at lakes and groves; there was a fair amount of consensus among the Greeks and Romans that these rituals involved human sacrifice. This may or may not be true; there is some evidence of human sacrifice among the Celts, but it does not seem to have been a prevalent practice. According to Julius Caesar, who gives the longest account of druids, the center of Celtic belief was the passing of souls from one body to another. From an archaeological perspective, it is clear that the Celts believed in an after-life, for material goods are buried with the dead. www.wsu.edu/~dee/MA/CELTS.HTMhmm? interesting. true? who is to say? OK, you've forced my hand. I feel that the Celts practiced human sacrifice as we do here in the west. What the Celts were doing was public execution, I have seen lethal injections performed here on the net as well as TV...Human sacrifice? OK, everyone feel that the Gallic Druids preformed Human sacrifice, and with this post I hope to put that to bed. Here is the quote is from book six of Caesar's accounts in Gaul... "The whole nation of Gaul is greatly devoted to ritual observances, and for that reason those who are smitten with the more grievous maladies and are engaged in the perils of battle either sacrifice human victims or vow to do so, employing Druids as ministers for such sacrifices. They believe in effect, that unless for a man's life a man's life be paid, the majesty of the immortal gods may not be appeased and in public as in private life they observe an ordinance of sacrifices of the same kind. Others use figures of immense size who's limbs, woven out of twigs they fill with living men and set on fire and the men perish in a sheet of flame. They believe that the execution of those who have been caught in the act of theft or robbery or some other crime is more pleasing to the immortal gods. However when supply of such fails they resort to the execution even of the innocent." Firstly, it is important for us to remember that Julius Caesar was drawing from second hand accounts and was down on Druids even more than the Celts themselves, though he was further down on them after his defeat I Britain after Gaul I think...However lets study Caesar's actual words. From the first sentence it becomes clear that Caesar is speaking on the Celtic nation as a whole and not Druids specifically. Now we also know the Druids of Gaul were exempt from war due to another quote which is: "Druids usually hold aloof from war and do not pay taxes with the rest. They are excused from military service and excused from all liabilities. Tempted by these rewards, many young men assemble by their own motion to receive training, many sent by parents or relitives..." Yet in the earlier quote Caesar specifically says "It was those engaged in the perils of battle" who were performing the sacrifice in question. This couldn't then have been the military exempt Druids. He even goes on to confirm when he tells us the Druids were being employed as ministers of such sacrifices. They were more-over acting as ministers and on behalf of the ordinary people in a public execution than the conspirators of a human sacrifice. So you are saying that a public execution is the same as a human sacrifice? And they were acting as say a bystander of the executions? A religious sacrifice is a great deal more different than a execution of a wrong doer. In many past cultures the two are combined, if you are a "evil doer" then you are executed for those acts. But a human sacrifice is different, it was for the gods. People of the past believedthat was necessary to worship their gods. And that is ok. It was a whole other world then. There are still a few cultures that do believe that, but cannot practice it. So many pagan religions have that in the history of their paths. Its there, and cannot be changed, and should not be changed. I was just pointing out the fact that it was there, and again, how are we to really know?
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Post by Senbecc on Feb 26, 2007 20:11:27 GMT -5
OK, you've forced my hand. I feel that the Celts practiced human sacrifice as we do here in the west. What the Celts were doing was public execution, I have seen lethal injections performed here on the net as well as TV...Human sacrifice? OK, everyone feel that the Gallic Druids preformed Human sacrifice, and with this post I hope to put that to bed. Here is the quote is from book six of Caesar's accounts in Gaul... "The whole nation of Gaul is greatly devoted to ritual observances, and for that reason those who are smitten with the more grievous maladies and are engaged in the perils of battle either sacrifice human victims or vow to do so, employing Druids as ministers for such sacrifices. They believe in effect, that unless for a man's life a man's life be paid, the majesty of the immortal gods may not be appeased and in public as in private life they observe an ordinance of sacrifices of the same kind. Others use figures of immense size who's limbs, woven out of twigs they fill with living men and set on fire and the men perish in a sheet of flame. They believe that the execution of those who have been caught in the act of theft or robbery or some other crime is more pleasing to the immortal gods. However when supply of such fails they resort to the execution even of the innocent." Firstly, it is important for us to remember that Julius Caesar was drawing from second hand accounts and was down on Druids even more than the Celts themselves, though he was further down on them after his defeat I Britain after Gaul I think...However lets study Caesar's actual words. From the first sentence it becomes clear that Caesar is speaking on the Celtic nation as a whole and not Druids specifically. Now we also know the Druids of Gaul were exempt from war due to another quote which is: "Druids usually hold aloof from war and do not pay taxes with the rest. They are excused from military service and excused from all liabilities. Tempted by these rewards, many young men assemble by their own motion to receive training, many sent by parents or relitives..." Yet in the earlier quote Caesar specifically says "It was those engaged in the perils of battle" who were performing the sacrifice in question. This couldn't then have been the military exempt Druids. He even goes on to confirm when he tells us the Druids were being employed as ministers of such sacrifices. They were more-over acting as ministers and on behalf of the ordinary people in a public execution than the conspirators of a human sacrifice. So you are saying that a public execution is the same as a human sacrifice? And they were acting as say a bystander of the executions? A religious sacrifice is a great deal more different than a execution of a wrong doer. In many past cultures the two are combined, if you are a "evil doer" then you are executed for those acts. But a human sacrifice is different, it was for the gods. People of the past believedthat was necessary to worship their gods. And that is ok. It was a whole other world then. There are still a few cultures that do believe that, but cannot practice it. So many pagan religions have that in the history of their paths. Its there, and cannot be changed, and should not be changed. I was just pointing out the fact that it was there, and again, how are we to really know? If you watch a public execution today what is one thing you nearly always see? A Catholic priest...Just because he is there does that mean he is there to make a religious sacrifice? "They believe in effect, that unless for a man's life a man's life be paid, the majesty of the immortal gods may not be appeased" Do we not still believe this? According to the goverment I believe the murderer is being killed because he killed, an eye for an eye as it says in the bible. When a death sentence is laid out judges still say "may god have mercy on your soul" and there are still priests there to watch over the execution. So in effect are we not still mixing execution with sacrifice to the majesty of the immortal god(s)?
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Post by KittyLane on Feb 26, 2007 20:27:02 GMT -5
So you are saying that a public execution is the same as a human sacrifice? And they were acting as say a bystander of the executions? A religious sacrifice is a great deal more different than a execution of a wrong doer. In many past cultures the two are combined, if you are a "evil doer" then you are executed for those acts. But a human sacrifice is different, it was for the gods. People of the past believedthat was necessary to worship their gods. And that is ok. It was a whole other world then. There are still a few cultures that do believe that, but cannot practice it. So many pagan religions have that in the history of their paths. Its there, and cannot be changed, and should not be changed. I was just pointing out the fact that it was there, and again, how are we to really know? If you watch a public execution today what is one thing you nearly always see? A Catholic priest...Just because he is there does that mean he is there to make a religious sacrifice? "They believe in effect, that unless for a man's life a man's life be paid, the majesty of the immortal gods may not be appeased" Do we not still believe this? According to the goverment I believe the murderer is being killed because he killed, an eye for an eye as it says in the bible. When a death sentence is laid out judges still say "may god have mercy on your soul" and there are still priests there to watch over the execution. So in effect are we not still mixing execution with sacrifice to the majesty of the immortal god(s)? no i feel that when there are priests or what have you its for fear of the evil doer's soul burning in hell. i dont think it has to do with anything beyond that. its like the swearing on the bible. "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me God." I mean, does that really change anything?
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 6, 2007 14:16:46 GMT -5
If you watch a public execution today what is one thing you nearly always see? A Catholic priest...Just because he is there does that mean he is there to make a religious sacrifice? "They believe in effect, that unless for a man's life a man's life be paid, the majesty of the immortal gods may not be appeased" Do we not still believe this? According to the goverment I believe the murderer is being killed because he killed, an eye for an eye as it says in the bible. When a death sentence is laid out judges still say "may god have mercy on your soul" and there are still priests there to watch over the execution. So in effect are we not still mixing execution with sacrifice to the majesty of the immortal god(s)? no i feel that when there are priests or what have you its for fear of the evil doer's soul burning in hell. i dont think it has to do with anything beyond that. its like the swearing on the bible. "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me God." I mean, does that really change anything? Here again, these are the accepted beliefs of the day, just as the latter was for the Gallic Celts. My only point here is that it probably wasn't the Druids who were preforming these ritual sacrifices. I personally don't think what we're doing here in the west of what the Celts in gaul were doing as human sacrifice.
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Post by KittyLane on Mar 6, 2007 21:55:22 GMT -5
no i feel that when there are priests or what have you its for fear of the evil doer's soul burning in hell. i dont think it has to do with anything beyond that. its like the swearing on the bible. "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me God." I mean, does that really change anything? Here again, these are the accepted beliefs of the day, just as the latter was for the Gallic Celts. My only point here is that it probably wasn't the Druids who were preforming these ritual sacrifices. I personally don't think what we're doing here in the west of what the Celts in gaul were doing as human sacrifice. but you do not know for sure do you?
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