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Post by Senbecc on Jun 8, 2007 13:37:42 GMT -5
This is a discussion I had with the Ban Drui Blackbird on a myspace group. I wanted to post it here for its information on Marriages under Brehon law. I will bold what she wrote. The Descent of Irish Celtic Kings - www.ldolphin.org/cooper/ch8.html
Patriarchy means handed down through a male line. The Celts were in fact a patriarchal society and just to point out...the very FEW Celtic queens and female warriors do not come close to an equal number of male warriors or Kings.
No one is stating that women didn't hold higher status in general, but they were hardly on equal footing...
And just so certain people know, the Brehon Laws are circa 1100 CE and therefore do not refer to any pre-Christian Celtic reflection and the "marriage of equals" translation came from Morgan Llewelyn who is a fiction writer. If someone can please point me to the actual "wedding vows" from the Laws that back this as factual information I would love to read it.The "Marriage of equals" is also to be found on the first pages Táin Bó Cúailnge and was the entire reason for the raid in the first place. As I understand it there were about ten to twelve types of Marriage..."Just so certain people know" so no it's not just a Morgan Llewellen thing. I would agree that there were probably allot more male warriors and kings etc. than than female warriors and queens, it just seemed to me that the statement was being made that women were treated as belongings, and since it is well know that Brehon law evolved from the old laws all things were equal, including the sexes. So I got 16 pages into the Tain (Thomas Kinsella's translation) and couldn't find a thing on marrying equals. Did find stories of Ulstermen having their wives sleep with Conochbor - as well as Derdriu being forced to be with Conochbor for a year and Eogan for a year...
Where can I find the marriage of equals quote in the Tain? What specific story?
Thanks. I will retract my statement about Brehon Law. I am actually not sure where I even pulled that year from, but I can't find it again, so I must have misread it. As for the "certain people" comment...it had nothing to do with the person who decided to take credit for it. The very first page describes the practice in detail BlackBird, don't tell me I have to outline the Tain for you. Well alright then... For should he be mean, the man with whom I should live, we were ill-matched together, inasmuch as I am great in largess and gift-giving, and it would be a disgrace for my husband if I should be better at spending than he, and for it to be said that I was superior in wealth and treasures to trim, while no disgrace would it be were one as great as the other. Were my husband a coward, 'twere as unfit for us to be mated, for I by myself and alone break battles and fights and combats, and 'twould be a reproach for my husband should his wife be more full of life than himself, and no reproach our being equally bold. Should he be jealous, the husband with whom I should live, that too would not suit me, for there never was a time that I had not my paramour.During the "Here Beginneth The Cualnge Cattle-raid" or their "pillow talk" the King and Queen set up the importance of equality in the marrige of equals which as the most sought after type of marriage would have been exactly what a King and Queen would have. Then during The Occasion of the Táin Medb and Ailill compare all of their belongings until she finds she has no Bull to match Ailill's. The point is "Marriage of equals" isn't Llewellyn's fiction. As well, I will include a website that deals soely in Brehon Law which also speak on the types of Marriages including that of equals. www.brehonlawsociety.org/ (To be cont.)
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 8, 2007 13:42:23 GMT -5
Some comments by Alexei Kondratiev about Celtic women:
Re: [imbas-public] Re: Celtic women
In a message dated 4/14/5 2:32:54 AM, Gaheris wrote:
<<My rule is that if the "fact" can be found referenced to at least three unrelated sources than I can accept that the "fact" is very likely true.>>
You have to be a bit more demanding than that. You have to be sure that the sources are in fact "unrelated" (Classical writers constantly quoted from each other's works -- most of them were not relaying first-hand information), and that they are in fact reporting the same "facts". A description of a wife coming to her husband's aid in a fistfight, for instance, doesn't automatically support the notion that she would go off to battle at his side, armed and mounted.
One example: in the excerpt from Dio Cassius that Saille quoted Boudicca is made to say that the Britons have no concept of private ownership but hold all things in common. But this statement is almost a word-for-word quote of a passage in Caesar's _De Bello Gallico_, where it describes some vaguely identified (and perhaps wholly imaginary) people in the interior of the island -- definitely not the rich coastal nation of the Iceni. The notion that Boudicca was genuinely quoting a Roman writer's image of her people from over a hundred years before her time (or probably older: Caesar was almost certainly quoting someone else) is totally incredible. Dio Cassius, writing at the beginning of the 3rd century CE, long after the British society of Boudicca's time had completely vanished, is taking Caesar's outlandish description of certain backwoods Britons and fancifully applying it to ancient Britain as a whole (and putting it into the mouth of his heroine -- he's essentially writing historical fiction). Since he doesn't have first-hand knowledge of what he's describing, we don't have to take him at his word. And since he's quoting Caesar, his statement doesn't reinforce Caesar's -- it merely extends it in an obviously misleading way.
Bear in mind, also, that Classical writers often contradict each other -- or even themselves. For example, in his Annals Tacitus tells us that the Britons didn't care whether they were ruled by a man or by a woman. However, he then says that the reason many of the Brigantes sided with Cartimandua's ex-husband Uenutius was because they resented being ruled by a woman. The two statements contradict each other, and either of them cannot be the whole truth. It suggests rather that, while it was not impossible, in the right circumstances, for women to assume leadership roles (as it was not in the Roman world), it was nevertheless not viewed as "normal" or particularly desirable. The fact that it was *possible* could lead to an exaggerated statement like the first one on the part of an outside observer from a different culture. When one looks at the details of the history, however, this first impression is mitigated. Alexei
Brehon Law -
Re: [imbas-public] Celtic women
In a message dated 4/4/5 12:39:48 AM, Saille wrote:
<<Perhaps by the fifth century, thanks to the inluence of the Roman Catholic church, this began to be true. But it certainly was not true before that if you examine the traditional Brehon Laws. See below for the very clear effort Brehon Law made to be just to women. Examine especially the First Degree of marriage and also the Third Degree of marriage where the woman is in full control of her husband.>>
The problem here is with the use of the words "before that", as if we could comfortably establish the chronology of the laws based on their ideological bent. We have to remember that all of the Irish legal texts as we have them are much later than the fifth century. We can, on the evidence of language, deduce which texts were composed earlier or later than others, but none of it can take us back with certainty as far as the fifth century or the period before Christianity. It's dangerous to take the position, on ideological grounds alone and without hard evidence, that positions favourable to women *necessarily* preceded Christianity, so that the laws that empower women are automatically assumed to be the earliest ones. This is not obvious at all.
Remember, also, that Brehon Law wasn't a single, homogeneous code. It included many different jurisprudential traditions competing for authority. What many of the mediaeval law-texts did was try to synthesise these diverse traditions so that they appeared to harmonise with each other in practice. The _Cóir Lanamna_ is just one very famous example of legal precedents from Ireland concerning relationships, but it's not the only one (the _Bretha Crólige_, for example, suggest a different tradition of legal terminology about marriage). And while parts of the _Cóir Lanamna_ are obviously ancient and have echoes in Indian and other Indo-European legal systems, the whole text itself is obviously a later, synthetic composition, and the parts in it that empower women aren't necessarily the oldest ones.
By the way, there was no such thing as the "Roman Catholic Church" in the fifth century: there was the Roman jurisdiction of the Christian church, which was quite a different animal. Alexei
Boudicea and Catimandua -
<< from Cassius Dio, in the work, Roman Histories, volume 8, book 62, section 6, talking about Boudica: ". nay, those over whom I rule are Britons, men that know not how to till the soil or ply a trade, but are thoroughly versed in the art of war and **hold all things in common, even children and wives, so that the latter possess the same valour as the men.**">>>>
Dio Cassius is merely repeating a passage from Julius Caesar (or more likely from Caesar's ultimate source) which gives a description of Britons completely at odds with what we know from the archaeological record. (The Britons of the interior are also described as ignorant of agriculture, which was also most certainly not true in a general sense). There are two possibilities: a) the whole notion is an invention of Classical writers, in order to show how "savage" and ignorant of "normal" customs the less-Romanised Britons of the interior were (this kind of caricaturing of alien peoples has always been pretty common); or b) there really were some people (probably very few in numbers, and pretty certainly non-Celtic) surviving in the interior of Britain who had a pre-Neolithic level of technology and marriage customs so different from the Indo-European norm that they were incomprehensible to outsiders. In either case, the allusion is irrelevant to the customs of Iron Age Celts. Boudicca was married, and her husband Prasutagus (the king of the Iceni) made special provisions for his daughters to be his inheritors. Her contemporary Cartimandua of the Brigantes divorced her husband Uenutius, leading to bad blood and widespread political unrest. The implication of these accounts (and many others like them) is that the *basics* of marriage among the Iron Age Celts were much the same as in the rest of the Indo-European world. Alexei
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 8, 2007 13:49:03 GMT -5
I guess what I meant was a direct quotation and preferably not between Nobles...as we know, nobility had different standards of life...but yes, you proved that amongst royals equality was strived for...
Now is there a specific quote found in the Brehon Laws in regards to the same practice?
Thanks. Here are some sites and resources I have looked at in reference to Marriage and equality in Irish culture. In ancient Ireland, under Brehon Law, the lowest clansman stood on an equal footing with his chieftain. For example, it is recorded that when several Irish Kings visited Richard II in Dublin, the Irish kings sat down to dinner with their minstrels and entire retinue as was their custom. The English were appalled by such a display of egalitarianism and soon rearranged things so that the Irish royalty ate separately from the rest of their attendants. The Irish gave in to this demand of the English in order to be courteous guests even though it went very much against their inclination and custom.This paragraph sets up the fact that all in Ireland were equal, man or woman, Noble or common. It should not be surprising that it was in this race of Gaels, where the equality of man was so well understood and practiced, that woman stood emancipated from the remotest time. Indeed, women in ancient Ireland were often eligible for the professions, and for rank and fame. They were druidesses, poets, physicians, sages, and lawgivers. Bridget was not only the name of the ancient Irish goddess who represented poetry and wisdom, and of the later saint who helped to spread Christianity throughout Ireland, but was also the name of an Irish lawgiver, Brigid Brethra, or Brigid of the Judgments, who lived about the time of Christ. It is this Brigid who is responsible for granting the right to women to inherit the land from their fathers in the absence of sons.
Under Brehon Law women were equal to men with regard to education and property. After marriage, the woman was a partner with, and not the property of, her husband. She remained the sole owner of property that had been hers prior to marriage. Property jointly owned by her and her husband could not be sold without her approval and consent. A married woman retained the right to pursue a case at law as well as recover for debt in her own person. In certain cases of legal separation for good cause, the wife not only took with her all of the marriage portion and gifts, but an amount over and above that for damages.
Because of their equality, or near equality, with men in other realms, women warriors frequently felt it was their duty to take up arms and march into battle with their brothers or husbands. Beginning with the warrior Queen of the Milesians, the Book of Invasions lists several women leaders. In the Ulster cycle of tales the noblest warrior of Ulster, Cuchulainn, was taught the art of war by a woman warrior named Scathatch, and fought his greatest battles against the forces of Queen Maeve of Connacht.www.irish-society.org/Hedgemaster%20Archives/brehon_laws.htmI found it to be an interesting article on the nature of Irish law. As well I will provide two histroical lists of the types of Marriages under the Irish Law systems. • A first degree union takes place between partners of equal rank and property. • A second degree union in which a woman has less property than the man and is supported by him. • A third degree union in which a man has less property than the woman and has to agree to management of the woman's cattle and fields. • A fourth degree union is the marriage of the loved one in which no property rights changed hands, though children's rights are safeguarded. • A fifth degree union is the mutual consent of the man and woman to share their bodies, but live under separate roofs. • A sixth degree union in which a defeated enemy's wife is abducted. This marriage is valid only as long as the man can keep the woman with him. • A seventh degree union is called a soldier's marriage and is a temporary and primary sexual union (a one night stand). • An eighth degree union occurs when a man seduces a woman through lying, deception or taking advantage of her intoxication (equivalent to the modern definition of "date rape"). • A ninth degree union is a union by rape (forcible rape). • A tenth degree union occurs between feeble-minded or insane people. Though listed in a few sources, when I looked them up in an Irish Gaelic dictionary they were not to be found, but it does seem to support the latter. Lanamnas comthinchuir -- union of joint property in which both partners contribute moveable goods into the union. The woman in such a union is called a wife of joint authority. Lanamnas mna for ferthinchur -- union of a woman on man's property into which the woman contributes little or nothing. Lanamnas fir for bantinchur -- union of a man on woman's property into which the man contributes little or nothing. Lanamnas fir thathigtheo -- union of a man visiting which signifies a less formal union in which the man visits the woman in her home with her kin's consent. Lanamnas foxail -- union in which a woman goes away openly with a man without the consent of her kin. Lanamnas taidi -- union in which a woman is secretly visited without knowledge of her kin. Lanamnas eicne no sleithe -- a union or mating by forcible rape or stealth. Lanamnas fir mir -- the union of two insane persons. Fool - yay...more for me to read on...thanks!
Okay, not to sound picky because I am actually very happy with what you supplied in regards to Ireland and I definitely plan to read further, but is there proof outside of Ireland that British and Gauls followed similiar practice?
I guess I can understand why Ireland would be offset and it actually make quite a bit of sense and I am definitely happy to see my views in regards to Ireland being such a better place in history , but does that mean that all Celtic tribes had similiar practices? Even your statement about the British coming might show that it was not a common practice in other nations that used to be Celtic? Or it could simply show that conquering parties suppressed such practices...does anyone (not just Fool) have any information in regards to women's status in other Celtic Nations? I would assume pre-Roman invasion would be ideal... I will certainly look into it BB, though admittedly I haven't seen much in the way of the Britons or Gauls in this practice as far as Marriage, though I have seen references to the social order being one of equality, which I'd have to look up...I may need to be wished luck on that one too as I've forgotten where to start looking. This is as far as we've gotten so far, I will keep the thread updated.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Jun 8, 2007 15:15:42 GMT -5
This has been a wonderful thread to keep up with.. I know that Wren and I have been enjoying it...
I think that it was a great idea to bring the information here!
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 8, 2007 15:33:28 GMT -5
This has been a wonderful thread to keep up with.. I know that Wren and I have been enjoying it... I think that it was a great idea to bring the information here! It's been fun to be involved in, thats why I like Blackbird though, she knows how to keep ya on your toes.
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Post by diarmuid on Apr 20, 2008 14:31:29 GMT -5
Kinda off topic, but related to the Brehon Laws on marraige. I think I remember reading this somewhere and that is where I got the idea, but I can't remember. Anyways, are the last laws on the different types of union there mainly to protect the right of a child, should one be concieved?
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Post by Senbecc on Apr 21, 2008 0:16:35 GMT -5
Kinda off topic, but related to the Brehon Laws on marraige. I think I remember reading this somewhere and that is where I got the idea, but I can't remember. Anyways, are the last laws on the different types of union there mainly to protect the right of a child, should one be concieved? According to the Cáin Lánamna (The law of the couple), from which the above marriage laws have been taken, there are about eight kinds of couplings under brehon law. "a father and his daughter" and "a son and his mother" are definitely two types covered by the law of the Brehon. Laws covering children however go much further than the Cáin Lánamna, as well as marriages. More can be found within the Sencha mor, as well as other volumes dealing in the ancient laws of Ireland.
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