|
Temples
Jul 6, 2007 23:48:25 GMT -5
Post by Lady Anastasia on Jul 6, 2007 23:48:25 GMT -5
And by the way, the context of what you wrote reads as if you think we are hiding, and that by that hiding we look guilty to others. You may not have intended it that way, but that is how it reads. AJ... I agree with Finn.. I got the same impression when I read the post
|
|
aj
Thinker
Posts: 68
|
Post by aj on Jul 7, 2007 0:13:46 GMT -5
perhaps I romantisied the idea alittle much. But while I agree we dont need to share things we've worked for hard, nor do we need the judgement of the masses I do think that part of the reason that they believe some of the crap they do is because we're not so out there. So by extension of this idea, if we were "out there" more people would believe less of the crap and more of the stuff we believe? I beg to differ. You know (or should) exactly where I got that idea. You just repeated a little further above. The notion is there are a lot of people out there who believe in crap. If we were more out they might believe what we believe. Guess what, that is called "bearing witness" and it means going head to head with opposing theologies. . ok now you are really starting to annoy me. putting words in my mouth, thinking some thing and I tell you different and you claim I just told you the same damn thing. I did not say that peoples religions were crap, I did not say that they would believe what we believe I said they would believe less crap. and by crap I mean dumb ideas that levitate things with a magic wand or shoot lightning from our eyes. or any other of the dumb beliefs they have. Perhaps. But then again, it depends on if you truly believe that monuments the like of which we mortals contrive impress the Gods and Goddesses. When I look upon mountains, oceans, forests, and the sky itself, I find our trappings rather unimpressive. I find it hard to believe such things are constructed for the entertainment of anyone but ourselves. And by the way, the context of what you wrote reads as if you think we are hiding, and that by that hiding we look guilty to others. You may not have intended it that way, but that is how it reads. [/quote] thats how you read it. I'm not saying I think that I'm saying others think that and if they think that and we fail to oppose it then they will continue to think it.
|
|
aj
Thinker
Posts: 68
|
Post by aj on Jul 7, 2007 0:14:30 GMT -5
sheesh I need to practice my writing apparently.
|
|
|
Post by Lady Anastasia on Jul 7, 2007 0:20:44 GMT -5
I've Gotten a request to delete this thread...
Opinions on why we should either keep or delete?
|
|
Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
|
Post by Finn on Jul 7, 2007 8:02:32 GMT -5
I've Gotten a request to delete this thread... Opinions on why we should either keep or delete? I won't be offended if we do or don't. I didn't get the impression the thread had strayed too far a'field, but if it has, I will respect the moderator's call.
|
|
Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
|
Post by Finn on Jul 7, 2007 8:21:28 GMT -5
ok now you are really starting to annoy me. putting words in my mouth, thinking some thing and I tell you different and you claim I just told you the same damn thing. You did. I am aware, however, that you are oblivious to the fact. More is the pity. Nonetheless, my goal is not to annoy you but perhaps for us to learn something from each other. Heh. Actually you did, in context, say that they believe in a bunch of crap. You did not define "crap" and left it in context of belief and religion, Pagan versus everyone else. Context is key. However, I can accept you didn't intend it that way and merely didn't clarify. However, I do think I should address your last point there. Who is "WE?" I asked you that before. You didn't answer. You use the word "we" a great deal. I assure you that there are many under the Pagan Umbrella who do believe they can levitate, use magic wands, and aspire (and some claim they can) shoot lightning. I take it you are saying "their" beliefs are crap? There used to be a wonderful site up, and I hope there is a mirror of it somewhere. It was called "Why Wicca Sucks." It addressed this notion which you now parrot, that there is no such thing as that kind of magic. Many Wiccans believe witchcraft is nothing more than a fancy prayer. Why? You either believe in magic or you don't. Why should we alter the definition of magic after thousands of years? Just because most people can't do it, doesn't mean you get to lower expectations. No matter how you slice it, you are calling the beliefs of some people (other than yourself) dumb or crap. You are just adjusting who gets the label now. It makes you no more respectful, but it does put you in with the majority of people who don't believe in magic. Gotcha. So you do, by context here, believe that we need to "oppose" i.e. go head to head with other belief systems in order change their minds. This is what I'm talking about. Analyze your own words under a microscope. We often say things without understanding our own motivations. There is nothing wrong with this position. Many militant Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens share it (to varying degrees). Even some moderates believe it, although they tend to word it as "education," not "opposition." Your choice of words also betrays you. But I'm gonig to address this position. It takes two sides for a fight. If you don't give the "other side" an opponent, they go on to do other things. If you show up for the fight, there is a fight. Your presence doesn't deter it; it enables the battle. In the history of humankind, there are countless examples of what happens when two (or more) opposing paradigms meet. The strong subjugate the weak. It is an evolution of sorts, following Mother Nature's example. Education, as someone more moderate would put it, doesn't enlighten people in and of itself. Another element must be there for that information to be meaningful and relevant. More often than not, educating the "other side" merely makes them better at fighting you. There are no examples of two (or more) mutually exclusive paradigms coming to a peaceful conclusion. That is because they are by defintion, "mutually exclusive." One cannot be right without the other being wrong. A fight will always be waiting to happen. It might take a long time, but it will come to a head. The more militant both sides become, the sooner it comes to pass. In effect, people building temples, making their presence known, bearing witness, and all that jazz intended to educate people is really just another version of singing: sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiDOGBIGGR;ttDOGBIGGR.htmlIt serves no other purpose than to make your side feel better about themselves. It has no bearing on truth or magic.
|
|
aj
Thinker
Posts: 68
|
Temples
Jul 7, 2007 12:57:56 GMT -5
Post by aj on Jul 7, 2007 12:57:56 GMT -5
"No matter how you slice it, you are calling the beliefs of some people (other than yourself) dumb or crap. You are just adjusting who gets the label now. It makes you no more respectful, but it does put you in with the majority of people who don't believe in magic."
I had not realized I was doing such. I see magic as a manipulation of energies and the things that we do along with it as something to get our minds mentally in the right place to properly influence said energies. and while I do believe in certain things like forms of levitation and such I know that it takes much study and practice not the wave of a wand with a word or two as some seem to think.
I see we also differ on battles. You believe that if you dont show there is no fight. I believe that if you dont show its more of a slaughter fest. ex: an army approaches your citystate (for example purposes lets place it in greece easier), one going by the belief that if we dont "show up" ie prepare to fight; they'll just walk in and take over, destroy what they disagree with or if they just hate you period they'd burn the city rape the women and kill everyone. thats what I see if someone follows the dont show up theres no battle thing. I believe that if you prepare for a fight and show it then there either wont be one because they'll realize they'll lose people as well, or there will be a fight but atleast it wont be slaughter. I agree about the evolution part though.
"In effect, people building temples, making their presence known, bearing witness, and all that jazz intended to educate" "It serves no other purpose than to make your side feel better about themselves"
I disagree with this though yes it does this also but I dont believe its the ONLY purpose. and personally I disagree with witnessing unless asked about it period.
I believe that if our presence was known then it wouldnt be so bad. yes you will always have the fundementalists that will hate other religions based on the simple fact that they're another religion. But I believe the majority of christians and others that think badly about not only pagans in general but about anyone is simply because of being in an environment that is like that. like a sponge they absorb it and since no ones around to correct them or even let them know that theres another version of what they've been told they will continue to think it and to spread it to others.
I could have sworn I stated why I was using "we" but I guess I didnt put it down. hrmm. By WE I mean pagans, serious ones not playgans or fad wiccans (before you say it no finn I am not saying wicca is only a fad I'm simply stating that many people use it as one, perhaps they dont know any other pagan religions). I mean those that fall under the umbrella of pagan and stay there. I mean it purely at its simplest all non-abrahamic religions. except atheists.
|
|
Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
|
Temples
Jul 7, 2007 13:49:59 GMT -5
Post by Finn on Jul 7, 2007 13:49:59 GMT -5
I had not realized I was doing such. I see magic as a manipulation of energies and the things that we do along with it as something to get our minds mentally in the right place to properly influence said energies. and while I do believe in certain things like forms of levitation and such I know that it takes much study and practice not the wave of a wand with a word or two as some seem to think. Fair enough. You share this belief with many people. I am not one of them. That sounds like a fancy way of saying "make a wish" or "pray." I'm more of a cause and effect kind of person. I'm not saying I can use a wand to do anything, but I'm not saying there aren't people who can either. It suffices to say I do believe there is such a thing as magic. So, if I understand your argument, if we don't show up for this fight, we will be hunted down like dogs and slaughtered? The fight is an unavoidable outcome in your opinion, and the other side (Christians, etc.) are the enemy and they are coming for us. The only option for survival is to meet them on the field of battle. Interesting argument. It doesn't hold water, however. This nation was founded by in large by Christians, and Christians a whole lot less tolerant than those we have today. And yet, we have religious freedom, freedom of speech, can meet and chatter away at places like this. I just don't see things the way you do. I don't see a fight as unavoidable. What I see is a minority of Christians who see things exactly as you see them. They want a fight or believe it can't be avoided either. They say the same things you do. It is their hope to motivate all Christians to get into this culture war, just as it is the wish of militant Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens that all of us come together to fight too. Only in this way, can battle actually happen. That is very idealistic but somewhat misguided. You are talking about the strategy of "mutually assured destruction" which is new, and has been effective in preventing the end of the world. However, that is an apples and oranges comparison. The so-called Pagan Community, even if we were all united, are such a minority of the population that we cannot threaten mutually assured destruction. All we can do is give the fanatics their boggeyman. I didn't realize it was that bad now? Can you elaborate? I don't know about you but I haven't been feeling persecuted, discriminated against, or in any way inconvenienced. Disagreement and dislike aren't the same thing. Here is the rub, there are lots of versions of it, too many for any to claim sole rights. In fact, there are versions of it that match their worst fears. There are Satanic Witches. There are Witches, Pagans, and/or Heathens who do things which fufill and exceed their darkest dreams. So telling them they are wrong, is somewhat deceptive. Well, at least you are getting specific. So all non-Abrahamic faiths, except Atheists. Everyone else is a Pagan? Fair enough. I suggest not using "we." Because the group you just outlined is huge and don't have that much in common. I think your use of the word "we" has a bit of hubris in it. It assumes a great deal.
|
|
aj
Thinker
Posts: 68
|
Temples
Jul 7, 2007 14:54:34 GMT -5
Post by aj on Jul 7, 2007 14:54:34 GMT -5
I had not realized I was doing such. I see magic as a manipulation of energies and the things that we do along with it as something to get our minds mentally in the right place to properly influence said energies. and while I do believe in certain things like forms of levitation and such I know that it takes much study and practice not the wave of a wand with a word or two as some seem to think. Fair enough. You share this belief with many people. I am not one of them. That sounds like a fancy way of saying "make a wish" or "pray." I'm more of a cause and effect kind of person. I'm not saying I can use a wand to do anything, but I'm not saying there aren't people who can either. It suffices to say I do believe there is such a thing as magic. not what I tried to say but ok whatever. So, if I understand your argument, if we don't show up for this fight, we will be hunted down like dogs and slaughtered? The fight is an unavoidable outcome in your opinion, and the other side (Christians, etc.) are the enemy and they are coming for us. again not what I said but an extremist example of something similar. The only option for survival is to meet them on the field of battle. Interesting argument. It doesn't hold water, however. This nation was founded by in large by Christians, and Christians a whole lot less tolerant than those we have today. And yet, we have religious freedom, freedom of speech, can meet and chatter away at places like this. yup and I love that. I just don't see things the way you do. I don't see a fight as unavoidable. What I see is a minority of Christians who see things exactly as you see them. They want a fight or believe it can't be avoided either. They say the same things you do. It is their hope to motivate all Christians to get into this culture war, just as it is the wish of militant Wiccans, Pagans, and/or Heathens that all of us come together to fight too. Only in this way, can battle actually happen. I'm still confused as to how we got off the original topic but ok I'll discuss this one. I didnt say we should go to war with them. That is very idealistic but somewhat misguided. You are talking about the strategy of "mutually assured destruction" which is new, and has been effective in preventing the end of the world. However, that is an apples and oranges comparison. The so-called Pagan Community, even if we were all united, are such a minority of the population that we cannot threaten mutually assured destruction. All we can do is give the fanatics their boggeyman. actually we can. non abrahamic religions make up about 48% of the world population and thats growing. I didn't realize it was that bad now? Can you elaborate? I don't know about you but I haven't been feeling persecuted, discriminated against, or in any way inconvenienced. Disagreement and dislike aren't the same thing. Really need to work on my typing, been trying but apparently havent succeeded as much as I thought. Here is the rub, there are lots of versions of it, too many for any to claim sole rights. In fact, there are versions of it that match their worst fears. There are Satanic Witches. There are Witches, Pagans, and/or Heathens who do things which fufill and exceed their darkest dreams. So telling them they are wrong, is somewhat deceptive. I wasnt gonna say that there arent some that believe as they think, I'm not stupid. I was gonna suggest saying that hrmm (would you please suggest a word other then we cause I'm having difficulting thinking up anything else) pagans arent ALL like that and thats not all we do. Well, at least you are getting specific. So all non-Abrahamic faiths, except Atheists. Everyone else is a Pagan? Fair enough. I suggest not using "we." Because the group you just outlined is huge and don't have that much in common. I think your use of the word "we" has a bit of hubris in it. It assumes a great deal. whats hubris and what does is assume to you?
|
|
aj
Thinker
Posts: 68
|
Temples
Jul 7, 2007 15:27:06 GMT -5
Post by aj on Jul 7, 2007 15:27:06 GMT -5
Well I talked to lala and apparently I failed in my attempted corrections miserably so here I go for another shot.
Ok apparently I phrased it bad when someone asked who the temples were for and I said everyone. you all took it to mean super temples where every one would gather togather. Thats not what I had in mind. What I had in mind was like this
ok, got a city. you got a temple to Zeus on this block, couple blocks up and over you have one to Poseidon, couple blocks farther away you have one for Set or Odin or whoever they want to build one for.
I was not thinking build a mall of america sized building and stick up statues and symbols of every god and goddess from every pantheon.
Now if this explanation clears it up, good lets get on topic if not, tell me and I'll try again. If finn still wants to argue he can message me personally.
|
|
|
Temples
Jul 7, 2007 15:54:11 GMT -5
Post by Lady Anastasia on Jul 7, 2007 15:54:11 GMT -5
Well I talked to lala and apparently I failed in my attempted corrections miserably so here I go for another shot. Ok apparently I phrased it bad when someone asked who the temples were for and I said everyone. you all took it to mean super temples where every one would gather togather. Thats not what I had in mind. What I had in mind was like this ok, got a city. you got a temple to Zeus on this block, couple blocks up and over you have one to Poseidon, couple blocks farther away you have one for Set or Odin or whoever they want to build one for. I was not thinking build a mall of america sized building and stick up statues and symbols of every god and goddess from every pantheon. Now if this explanation clears it up, good lets get on topic if not, tell me and I'll try again. If finn still wants to argue he can message me personally. Now... that's a better explanation than just flat out saying temples for everyone
|
|
|
Temples
Jul 8, 2007 10:51:18 GMT -5
Post by Der Trommler on Jul 8, 2007 10:51:18 GMT -5
Now reading the past arguments, I took what was being said by AJ as what he meant. A temple to worship all Gods/Godesses but even in the Greek pantheon, they built different temples for different Gods/Godesses. Somehow, I agree with Finn, it really doesn't help. However, I think that designing buildings that have a Pagan element to it would be cool. A sort of 'vacation' spot for those Pagans (but still open to all walks of life) who'd like to see (like a museum). I love the Greek architecture & wish the structures could have lasted. Anyway, there's nothing saying that you can't build anything (well, first you need $$$ for land & material...then there's the whole thing about a building permit....crews & such). So, if you have a dream, go with it. However, be warned that some dreams you have are nightmares to others. You can be a little less 'in your face' about it. There are other ways around. From what I heard, the Roman Catholic church placed churches on the Pagans worshipping grounds (groves etc...). To this day, most Pagans have a favorite worshipping spot (sometimes none) rather than having an a structure for the opposition (whoever they are) to attack. Pagans aren't really into organizing the religion as it becomes a church with rules. Pus, that whole thing about which religion is what in the pantheon & such... Best to leave the things the way they are (for now). Slowly, I've seen more people opening up to Pagans & Paganism in general. My romantic notions of making the religion more open was realized as a folly as I realized these things. I DO, however, believe that Pagans need to take a little more action in making the religion a little more recognizable to the governments (not sure of others but the U.S. is not recognizing Paganism enough yet). For instance, many states do not recognize a Pagan leader as one who can perform marriages. They have to be a Justice of the Peace in order to be recognized. So, that's my off subject rant....
|
|
Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
|
Temples
Jul 8, 2007 11:32:18 GMT -5
Post by Finn on Jul 8, 2007 11:32:18 GMT -5
whats hubris and what does is assume to you? I'm not 100% sure what you mean here. I'm going to guess that you mean "what is hubris, and what do you think I am assuming?" The term "hubris" is an archaic way of saying an excess of pride or arrogance. In more plain, modern terms, I think you are being arrogant in assuming there is such a thing as "WE" in the Pagan sense. You tend to speak as if we are a collective, more alike than different. You seems to view it as mostly just two camps, one Abrahamic faiths and in the other there is everyone else. The magnitude of that criteria is beyond belief. It suffices to say that the people within YOUR Pagan grouping have little in common. They should not be grouped together. It is one of my personal pet peeves that those under the Pagan Umbrella are often spoken for by a minority among us, as if we all speak as one. We do not. More to the point, should I be any less insulted when a Wiccan, Pagan, and/or Heathen misrepresents me as when a Christian does it?
|
|
aj
Thinker
Posts: 68
|
Temples
Jul 8, 2007 18:30:25 GMT -5
Post by aj on Jul 8, 2007 18:30:25 GMT -5
whats hubris and what does is assume to you? I'm not 100% sure what you mean here. I'm going to guess that you mean "what is hubris, and what do you think I am assuming?" The term "hubris" is an archaic way of saying an excess of pride or arrogance. In more plain, modern terms, I think you are being arrogant in assuming there is such a thing as "WE" in the Pagan sense. You tend to speak as if we are a collective, more alike than different. sorry. You seems to view it as mostly just two camps, one Abrahamic faiths and in the other there is everyone else. hmm more like a thousand camps in a decent sized area with some talking to others and some not. like high school you got this group that thinks the same and gets along and this group and this group. and you have a few people that have friends in the other groups and will go over and talk to them. The magnitude of that criteria is beyond belief. It suffices to say that the people within YOUR Pagan grouping have little in common. They should not be grouped together. It is one of my personal pet peeves that those under the Pagan Umbrella are often spoken for by a minority among us, as if we all speak as one. We do not. sorry I dont know all the different groups much less alot about them so I'm stuck sticking to the most common label within discussions. More to the point, should I be any less insulted when a Wiccan, Pagan, and/or Heathen misrepresents me as when a Christian does it? nope. I get the same way.
|
|
Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
|
Post by Finn on Jul 9, 2007 8:12:24 GMT -5
I suppose we should go back to the original notion of temples. I'm going to leave off all the "what if" stuff about ruling the world. I think those kind of speculations are kind of self indulgent and worthless. The temples, however, are not science fiction and can be accomplished easily enough. So what is stopping you (or anyone) from doing these temples now?
Anyone can go through the legal process to establish a church, start collecting donations and funds, borrow, spend their own money, and/or do the labor themselves (or with volunteers) to build a temple. In fact, there are several different Wiccan, Pagan, and/or Heathen groups attempting to do so. The reason there areny any giant, modern Pagan temples is because thus far Pagans haven't really gone out of their way to contribute.
That is how temples are built. Those who believe contribute. This means the only way you are going to get any (let alone many) is if you go out and start getting converts, and converts with more team spirit besides. Do you see where this is going? You can't big pretty temples without resources. You can't get resources without lots of followers. You can't get lots of followers without spreading the good word. This is why religions, particularly successful ones, have a predictable pattern through history. In math this rule reads something like this, "you cannot maximize two variables." I'll let you figure out how this applies to your desire.
Myself, I've never had any great need for temples. They aren't required by my belief system, and in all honesty they pale beside the natural world. However, since such things do inspire you, go ahead and start working on one. You already have the legal right and the tools at you disposal. All it requires is the hard work.
|
|