Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on May 26, 2007 10:04:02 GMT -5
Indeed! I am not saying that one shouldnt be allowed to study other cultures as that would be ridiculous. Its whenever people start picking and choosing and then using the gods for their own means without truly trying to understand the gods. Then the worst crime of all is to, as i said, try to pass on their 'à la carte cultures' to others claiming them to be legitimate. That destroys cultures it doesent save them. Yes. Yes, it does. Culture can only be understood in context. I liken it to finding a beautiful natural formation of crystal in the woods. It is huge and unique. Tourists come day in and day out to see it and few (if not many) want to take the special moment of beauty with them. They start chipping off little bits for their very own. No one is trying to destroy the crystal, but it ends up whittled away just the same. It is one thing to study a culture, it is another thing to want to own it. Some things are best observed from afar, allowing them to keep their freedom and mystery. Under the "Pagan Umbrella" I still believe those who pillage other cultures are being disrespectful, although I doubt they do it on purpose. They are seeking, not truth, not knowledge, but identity and legitimacy. It is something most people want. It is always easier to have it given to you or to "take" it rather than have to earn it yourself.
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Post by Senbecc on May 26, 2007 17:26:58 GMT -5
Indeed! I am not saying that one shouldnt be allowed to study other cultures as that would be ridiculous. Its whenever people start picking and choosing and then using the gods for their own means without truly trying to understand the gods. Then the worst crime of all is to, as i said, try to pass on their 'à la carte cultures' to others claiming them to be legitimate. That destroys cultures it doesent save them. Yes. Yes, it does. Culture can only be understood in context. I liken it to finding a beautiful natural formation of crystal in the woods. It is huge and unique. Tourists come day in and day out to see it and few (if not many) want to take the special moment of beauty with them. They start chipping off little bits for their very own. No one is trying to destroy the crystal, but it ends up whittled away just the same. It is one thing to study a culture, it is another thing to want to own it. Some things are best observed from afar, allowing them to keep their freedom and mystery. Under the "Pagan Umbrella" I still believe those who pillage other cultures are being disrespectful, although I doubt they do it on purpose. They are seeking, not truth, not knowledge, but identity and legitimacy. It is something most people want. It is always easier to have it given to you or to "take" it rather than have to earn it yourself. I'll say I still see it as legitimate as long as they're honest about where the practices and traditions they borrow from came from, and don't claim to know things they have no way of knowing like Lakota "shamanism" for example. It seems that pride and purity of culture seems to others outside of the said culture to be not much more that racism. Like the two of you, I just don't see it that way. I wholeheartedly agree with what Marcus said on Gaelic gods, there does seem to be a rush to claim them as something they were never intended to be. Does it make me down on Wicca or other New Aged philosophies because they piss me off? Heh, I'll leave that to debate.
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Post by Marcus on May 27, 2007 18:20:46 GMT -5
Yes. Yes, it does. Culture can only be understood in context. I liken it to finding a beautiful natural formation of crystal in the woods. It is huge and unique. Tourists come day in and day out to see it and few (if not many) want to take the special moment of beauty with them. They start chipping off little bits for their very own. No one is trying to destroy the crystal, but it ends up whittled away just the same. That is an exellant way to explain what I have been trying to say! Ive never been able to put my thoughts on this into words but you have done it for me! John I think we mostly agree on all the same things! However! I disagree with you in some context over whether or not it is still acceptable to to pillage other cultures if "they're honest about where the practices and traditions they borrow from came from, and don't claim to know things they have no way of knowing." I dont believe it is acceptable under any circumstances. Like at a court case if someone said "Yes i stole it, but I know its not mine so its ok". An argument like that doesent work. Whether they are honest or not still doesent change that they are diluting and destroying cultures.
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Finn
Philosopher
Posts: 153
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Post by Finn on May 27, 2007 19:59:27 GMT -5
John I think we mostly agree on all the same things! However! I disagree with you in some context over whether or not it is still acceptable to to pillage other cultures if "they're honest about where the practices and traditions they borrow from came from, and don't claim to know things they have no way of knowing." I dont believe it is acceptable under any circumstances. Like at a court case if someone said "Yes i stole it, but I know its not mine so its ok". An argument like that doesent work. Whether they are honest or not still doesent change that they are diluting and destroying cultures. I am a bit confused here. I never made the argument that I ever thought it was acceptable (under any circumstance) to pillage other cultures. I said I think it is acceptable to have an interest in and study other cultures. I said I think it is proper, if one is going to immerse oneself in a practice and reconstruct it that it be done in proper context. It goes without saying that I don't think you should be trying to reconstruct the faiths and religions of other cultures.
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Post by Marcus on May 28, 2007 6:12:36 GMT -5
John I think we mostly agree on all the same things! However! I disagree with you in some context over whether or not it is still acceptable to to pillage other cultures if "they're honest about where the practices and traditions they borrow from came from, and don't claim to know things they have no way of knowing." I dont believe it is acceptable under any circumstances. Like at a court case if someone said "Yes i stole it, but I know its not mine so its ok". An argument like that doesent work. Whether they are honest or not still doesent change that they are diluting and destroying cultures. I am a bit confused here. I never made the argument that I ever thought it was acceptable (under any circumstance) to pillage other cultures. I said I think it is acceptable to have an interest in and study other cultures. I said I think it is proper, if one is going to immerse oneself in a practice and reconstruct it that it be done in proper context. It goes without saying that I don't think you should be trying to reconstruct the faiths and religions of other cultures. Those words were directed at Senbecc sorry, I prefer to use peoples real names. I agree with you Finn in all context.
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Post by Senbecc on May 28, 2007 10:48:02 GMT -5
John I think we mostly agree on all the same things! However! I disagree with you in some context over whether or not it is still acceptable to to pillage other cultures if "they're honest about where the practices and traditions they borrow from came from, and don't claim to know things they have no way of knowing." It isn't pillaging IMO if they don't bastardize the traditions from which they are taken. If one takes from the Irish pantheon, and keeps the ideas of the gods as they're meant to be and don't water them down. If a person is claiming to know the Irish gods and has no ties to the land, and has a house full of statues as though that somehow makes up for the disconnect from the land, I say that is willful ignorance, as anyone can come to understand the gods, the information is everywhere. The Lakota people OTOH are a people who have never made the ways of the Yuwipi public in any way, other than some Pow-wows, and then find all the things that you were nice enough to allow into public view being bastardized by a people who have no way of understanding what they're doing...THAT'S my definition of Bastardization and "pillaging". Do people pillage the Irish? Oh HELL yes they do, I see it constantly and it turns my gut. Sweet little Wiccan Archetypes (as Ardri put it best) that come floating out of trees and laying their hands on their souls as though they were somehow saviours, as opposed to the heroes of the Irish Sidhe, warriors and poets that you and I know. That to my mind is pillaging as well. However, if someone adds the Gods I know as they're meant to be to their philosophies, I can't say I see that as "pillaging" my culture. Again, one would need to define thievery. Many cultures are out there for the taking, all one need do is apply themselves to a serious study. Earning the right to honor the Irish gods for example to my mind isn't stealing at all. Honoring them as they're meant to be honored (ie as individuals and ancestors) isn't deluding or destroying anything. That's the difference here, the Lakota people have let none of this needed knowledge out, not even on their Gods. True I have posted some informational posts on some of the individual gods and goddesses of the culture, but I can make no claim to *truly* understand their gods, I am not Lakota and therefore am not privy to their teachings. Is that more understandable?
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