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Post by Senbecc on Apr 13, 2007 22:16:55 GMT -5
New Forrest coven wasn't it? I think anyway. HMMM. I would like to actually read some of that or be directed to this coven's information if possible. OK, the New Forrest coven is the coven Gardner claimed to be initiated into. Now bare in mind that I don't buy much of what I'm about to post, but it does show that Gardner had associations with it. Now whether he was indeed a part of this coven or made it up, I will leave to the reader to decide. The New Forest coven was a witchcraft coven that allegedly met in England's New Forest region. Gerald Gardner claimed to have been initiated into this group before writing Witchcraft Today, a book describing their beliefs and practices. This variety of witchcraft formed the basis of modern Wicca.[1] Certain historians have suggested that this coven never existed, and was a fabrication of Gardner's,[2][3] while others claim strong evidence in support of its existence.[4] Gardner himself admitted that their rites were fragmentary and that he had added material from other sources to make a coherent system of rituals.[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Forest_covenWiccan Roots begins with a fairly detailed examination of Gerald Gardner's life up to his retirement to England in 1936, establishing Gardner as a gentleman of independent means with a complaisant wife, and an active interest in esoteric subjects. After setting the scene by discussing the geography of the New Forest area, including the village of Highcliffe where Gardner eventually settled, Heselton examines the Rosicrucian Order Crotona Fellowship, which established the Garden Theatre in the village of Somerford, between Christchurch and Highcliffe. It was among the membership of the Crotona Fellowship, and the casts and crews of the various plays produced by the Fellowship in the Garden Theater that Gardner is supposed to have found "a small group of people apart from the rest." It is this smaller group which is supposed to have been made up of members of the New Forest Coven, and which eventually initiated him into "the Craft of the Wica." Heselton identifies several of these persons by name, and provides some details of their lives. Among these is the woman known as "Dafo," who became Gardner's initiator and first magical partner, and who later broke with him over the question of publicizing witchcraft. www.ecauldron.com/bkwr.phpSo now for the big question. Did the New Forest Coven exist? There is evidence of the existence of 'Old Dorothy' - Dorothy Clutterbuck. She was in fact far from old compared to Gardner. There was in fact only six months between them in age (Doreen Valiente obtained the birth certificate of Ms D Clutterbuck). It should be remembered that adding 'old' to the beggining of a name in the south of England is a term of endearment. So what else do we know of Ms Clutterbuck? For starters she was friends with Annie Besant's (one of the founders of the Theosophy Movement) daughter. Was Dorothy in fact a Theosophist? Here are several possibilities listed: There was no Magical Group at all, and Gerald just learn't a few bits of Theosophy from Dorothy Clutterbuck and other members of the Christchurch Rosicrucian Theatre. There was a Magical Group in the New Forest, but it didn't call itself a coven, but Gerald had notions that it was. In this case, he was probably thrown out for calling it a coven in High Magicks Aid which upset the members who did not want to be associated with the 'W' word. There was a group calling itself 'The New Forest Coven', but it had very little in the way of written ritual. The whole thing is a conspiracy by Doreen Valiente and Janet and Stewart Farrar to sell more books! (Sorry, couldn't resist that, snigger!) www.wicca.utvinternet.com/history.htmAnyway as I said I will leave it to the reader to decide if there really was a new Forest coven or not.
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Post by Senbecc on Apr 13, 2007 22:26:05 GMT -5
Having read up on the history of Wicca, evidently this author is claiming it to be of Roman origin then? Just don't think I'd buy that either, now Stregheria has obvious associations with Roman history, I'm just not sure how the two paths could be linked together. According to the article, when the Wiccan community realized they had been lied to in the 70's and "reformed" the practice with Raymond Buckland's book on Saxon Wicca or "Reformed Traditional Wicca" which teaches people can form new traditions, can practice solitary, and even...Dare I say it...lol "self-initiate"...I knew allot of the people I saw on myspace were being fundamentalist knot-heads, but if this is true, then what can I say but ROTFLMFAO. Haha, I didn't think I'd like this read, I'll need to research it some more, but I must say at first I didn't know how I felt about this woman, now I must say I like her thoughts on the subject. HEr? Hah...Simon Craft is a guy..:-P and Roman origins? ..no he was not claiming Wicca has roman origins..you must have read that at the very very beginnig when he was describing where the word PAGAN came from..NOT WICCAN..but PAGAN...he was talking about Latin Paganus for Country Dweller and went on from there..basicly the entymology..and then into the moderd day definition. Read from about the bottom of page 16 on..when he starts talking about Gerald Gardner. anything prior to that is basicly just setting things up. and giving people not in the community a rundown of events that transpired a long long long time ago..lol Ah, I see then. I did like the article and it seems a better explaination of things than one can usually get...Shame we can't post it here lol. I'll re-read the article from page 16 then and get back to you.
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Post by Senbecc on Apr 13, 2007 22:55:25 GMT -5
How can you really believe that he was trying to establish a religion? Where did you get that impression? On Gardner being, "full of it" its easy to dismiss people after you have formed your own opinions. Everyone else's findings/opinions are really just hear say until you find out for your own self. In my opinion, I can see no way around the fact that he was establishing a religion. Wicca is a religion and it didn't exist before Gardner. He created a religion based on several different things but it obviously was created by him and promoted by him. I've never seen anything to the contrary. It may very well have roots in an earlier coven of witches but was so drasticly changed by Gardner that it became it's own entity. It isn't simply witchraft...it is Wicca....a religion established by Gardner. Oh, she knows the two aren't the same thing. IMO, any eclectic or single path is it's own entity, I feel that Kitty may be right to an extent, I think Gardner was probably studying several different cultures along with other more modern sources like OTO, Golden dawn etc. and began to put it together a piece at a time. I do however feel that Wicca is the religious side of Witchcraft. Witchcraft is simply a practice of magic and spells etc. from many different cultures which is why IMO Wicca too involves so many cultures in it's make up.
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Post by tahlia on Apr 14, 2007 1:43:17 GMT -5
In my opinion, I can see no way around the fact that he was establishing a religion. Wicca is a religion and it didn't exist before Gardner. He created a religion based on several different things but it obviously was created by him and promoted by him. I've never seen anything to the contrary. It may very well have roots in an earlier coven of witches but was so drasticly changed by Gardner that it became it's own entity. It isn't simply witchraft...it is Wicca....a religion established by Gardner. Oh, she knows the two aren't the same thing. IMO, any eclectic or single path is it's own entity, I feel that Kitty may be right to an extent, I think Gardner was probably studying several different cultures along with other more modern sources like OTO, Golden dawn etc. and began to put it together a piece at a time. I do however feel that Wicca is the religious side of Witchcraft. Witchcraft is simply a practice of magic and spells etc. from many different cultures which is why IMO Wicca too involves so many cultures in it's make up. Exactly. He put it together and it is a religion. That would make it a religion established by Gardner correct? Oh and I was in no way insinuating that anyone here didn't understand the difference between witchcraft and Wicca. I was basicly just saying that Wicca definately drew from more than a small coven of witches. So it's not something Gardner learned from the (questionable) coven. It's something he formed himself from many places. Personally I think much of it was just to satisfy his own desires, but hey that's just my thoughts and I didn't know the man so maybe I'm totally wrong there.
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Post by theoccultchrist on Apr 14, 2007 12:26:00 GMT -5
Oh, she knows the two aren't the same thing. IMO, any eclectic or single path is it's own entity, I feel that Kitty may be right to an extent, I think Gardner was probably studying several different cultures along with other more modern sources like OTO, Golden dawn etc. and began to put it together a piece at a time. I do however feel that Wicca is the religious side of Witchcraft. Witchcraft is simply a practice of magic and spells etc. from many different cultures which is why IMO Wicca too involves so many cultures in it's make up. Exactly. He put it together and it is a religion. That would make it a religion established by Gardner correct? Oh and I was in no way insinuating that anyone here didn't understand the difference between witchcraft and Wicca. I was basicly just saying that Wicca definately drew from more than a small coven of witches. So it's not something Gardner learned from the (questionable) coven. It's something he formed himself from many places. Personally I think much of it was just to satisfy his own desires, but hey that's just my thoughts and I didn't know the man so maybe I'm totally wrong there. no, I think you're pretty much right on I have a Copy of His book "Witchcraft Today" trust me I think if Gardner would be alive today..he would be one of the people the Pagan community as a whole talks about and tells young people new to the craft to stay away from.... his emphasied Sex a bit too much.. I really believe he was just a Pervert who wanted 10 to 12 young girls bare breasted dancing around him...hah which thats not bad in of itsself per sey.lol...but dont disguise it as "Relgion"
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Post by Senbecc on Apr 14, 2007 17:29:25 GMT -5
Oh, she knows the two aren't the same thing. IMO, any eclectic or single path is it's own entity, I feel that Kitty may be right to an extent, I think Gardner was probably studying several different cultures along with other more modern sources like OTO, Golden dawn etc. and began to put it together a piece at a time. I do however feel that Wicca is the religious side of Witchcraft. Witchcraft is simply a practice of magic and spells etc. from many different cultures which is why IMO Wicca too involves so many cultures in it's make up. Exactly. He put it together and it is a religion. That would make it a religion established by Gardner correct? Oh absolutely, I wasn't arguing that. I simply meant I think its right that it may not have started that way but was more over from a study of cultures that Gardner began to piece together a religious practice. Definitely established by Gardner. I'll agree with this. I have often taken issue with how he changed the traditions he "borrowed" too as many here well know lol. It is my belief that within an eclectic practice one should take the time to study in fine detail, and from every angle any tradition one borrows from another culture, so that once that tradition or practice is in place in the resulting hybrid path, the origins, history, as well as how the tradition may or may not have changed to fit the needs of the new path. I don't see allot of that done by Gardner or Gardnerians for that matter. The Celtic year and a day initiation as well as Eastern Karma are just two examples of that. I agree, there is no need what-so-ever to practice sky-clad at all to my mind if that is what you mean. What is needed is to practice comfortably.
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Post by wvdonovan on Apr 15, 2007 15:53:00 GMT -5
Interesting conversation. OK-my two cents. lol While witchcraft has been around forever--look at the Italians and so-forth, "Wicca" very oviously started with Gardner. I don't see how you can say he wasn't trying to start a religion, but ok, each is entitled to his own opinion. I wasn't there. so I don't know what he was thinking. Perhaps you are right, Kitty, perhaps he was just making observations, etc.. and those after him are who made it a religion. Sounds a bit familiar to me--kind fo like Christianity. Jesus wasn't forming a religion--he was just preaching what he was taught by others. Those after him--i.e. the Apostles after his death, formed Christianity. But then, Jesus didn't write a book, Gardner did. Whatever his, Gardner's, intent was--Wicca was formed. And I have to agree with John--it is not of Celtic origin.
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Post by Senbecc on Apr 16, 2007 16:01:44 GMT -5
Interesting conversation. OK-my two cents. lol While witchcraft has been around forever--look at the Italians and so-forth, "Wicca" very oviously started with Gardner. I don't see how you can say he wasn't trying to start a religion, but ok, each is entitled to his own opinion. I wasn't there. so I don't know what he was thinking. Perhaps you are right, Kitty, perhaps he was just making observations, etc.. and those after him are who made it a religion. Sounds a bit familiar to me--kind fo like Christianity. Jesus wasn't forming a religion--he was just preaching what he was taught by others. Those after him--i.e. the Apostles after his death, formed Christianity. But then, Jesus didn't write a book, Gardner did. Whatever his, Gardner's, intent was--Wicca was formed. And I have to agree with John--it is not of Celtic origin. Oh, I can see what she was thinking. I would agree that allot of what Wicca is today is allot different from what it was in Gardner's day: i.e. "Reformed traditional Wicca". I think Gardner definitely got caught in more than a few windies which got his new religious philosophy off the ground, but OTOH the fact of the matter is this. Gardner came up with a philosophy at just the right time, and presented it to a people who were seeking a balance that they simply couldn't find with a one male creator god, presented by a duality in which women and men would be considered equal as opposed to what most were used to in the 50's. This is why I for one have never been all that strict on what I would consider a "Wiccan", as I see the philosophy of the "Goddess and God, Lord-n-lady" or what ever you prefer as a strictly "Wiccan" belief, as it was presented by Gardner to the public...I sometimes think the man knew exactly what he was doing.
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Post by wvdonovan on Apr 16, 2007 22:27:11 GMT -5
You would--lol. But I agree--I do not think his concepts were unique--it was just a matter of "good timing". Supply in demand, so to speak.
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Post by Senbecc on Apr 17, 2007 20:04:06 GMT -5
You would--lol. But I agree--I do not think his concepts were unique--it was just a matter of "good timing". Supply in demand, so to speak. What culture do you think he took the one god one goddess idea from then?
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Post by wvdonovan on Apr 18, 2007 9:17:40 GMT -5
You would--lol. But I agree--I do not think his concepts were unique--it was just a matter of "good timing". Supply in demand, so to speak. What culture do you think he took the one god one goddess idea from then? Ok, you asked for it--and seeing how I have the day off, I'm liable to find some pretty cool stuff--lol. These are just a few cultures he could have gotten the idea from. 1) Some African cultures A. The Original Divine Monogyny: One God, One Goddess: Numerous African creation myths suggest that creation-gods were monogynists. In The Pitcher and the Basket, an Issansu story, Tanzania, east Africa, the sun (husband) and the moon (wife) are referred to as the original (divine) couple. 2) Japan Japanese creation myth From: www.dreamscape.com/morgana/umbriel.htm In the beginning, heaven and earth were not divided. Then, from the ocean of chaos, a reed arose, and that was the eternal land ruler, Kunitokotatchi. Then came the female God, Izanami, and the male, Izanagi. 3) New Zealand The Maori world order was genealogically connected, and in one chant (in which histories were retained and transmitted) the beginning is Nothing (Te Kore) and leads through Night, Dawn, and Light of Day, to the Sky (a male, Rangi) and Earth (a female, Papa). 4) Hungary From: www.dreamscape.com/morgana/oberon.htm#HUN[Excerpt from The Saga of the Legend of the Stag, as collected by Adorjan Magyar] The seeds of the Holy Sea break out of your shell. The eternal sea's waves are waving, and rolling. Their waves are rocking and their foam is hissing. There is no earth yet anywhere, but in the immeasurable heights, Above in his golden house, sits the great heavenly father on his golden throne. He is the old, white haired and white bearded God of eternity. On his black robes there are thousands of sparkling stars. Besides him sits his wife, the Great Heavenly Mother. On her white robes (palast) there are thousands of sparkling stars. She is the ancient material of which everything is made. They have existed from eternity in the past and will exist for all eternity to come. Just to name a few. Now, grant you, from these came lesser gods and goddesses. Other religions had the female Goddess, while some the male God. But my theory, and just my opinion, is that Gardner, who was obviously versed in various cultures, stood facing a world where Christianity was the dominant religion. So he sort of took that "one God" concept, added the female aspect to it and poof. All human societies are based on structured ritual and deal with such themes as life and death, male and female, right and left, good and bad, clean, and polluted.
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Post by tahlia on Apr 18, 2007 12:38:55 GMT -5
Awesome! I love getting a peek at some of these lesser known mythologies. You should have days off more often. Thanks.
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Post by Senbecc on Apr 18, 2007 18:48:10 GMT -5
What culture do you think he took the one god one goddess idea from then? Ok, you asked for it--and seeing how I have the day off, I'm liable to find some pretty cool stuff--lol. These are just a few cultures he could have gotten the idea from. 1) Some African cultures A. The Original Divine Monogyny: One God, One Goddess: Numerous African creation myths suggest that creation-gods were monogynists. In The Pitcher and the Basket, an Issansu story, Tanzania, east Africa, the sun (husband) and the moon (wife) are referred to as the original (divine) couple. 2) Japan Japanese creation myth From: www.dreamscape.com/morgana/umbriel.htm In the beginning, heaven and earth were not divided. Then, from the ocean of chaos, a reed arose, and that was the eternal land ruler, Kunitokotatchi. Then came the female God, Izanami, and the male, Izanagi. 3) New Zealand The Maori world order was genealogically connected, and in one chant (in which histories were retained and transmitted) the beginning is Nothing (Te Kore) and leads through Night, Dawn, and Light of Day, to the Sky (a male, Rangi) and Earth (a female, Papa). 4) Hungary From: www.dreamscape.com/morgana/oberon.htm#HUN[Excerpt from The Saga of the Legend of the Stag, as collected by Adorjan Magyar] The seeds of the Holy Sea break out of your shell. The eternal sea's waves are waving, and rolling. Their waves are rocking and their foam is hissing. There is no earth yet anywhere, but in the immeasurable heights, Above in his golden house, sits the great heavenly father on his golden throne. He is the old, white haired and white bearded God of eternity. On his black robes there are thousands of sparkling stars. Besides him sits his wife, the Great Heavenly Mother. On her white robes (palast) there are thousands of sparkling stars. She is the ancient material of which everything is made. They have existed from eternity in the past and will exist for all eternity to come. Yes, I understand that most cultures understood the importance of the male and female energy, the only real problem I have here is that I'd have to ask which of these cultures saw "the goddess and god" as aspects of a Divine duality, or as a means through which they touch there higher Divine? In my experience the mother and father aspects of creation are the beginning of a bloodline, as some feel is the case with Bile of the trees and Anu in Celtic legend, of course w/o a creation myth to back it up its an awful big leap. No, I am more inclined to believe that the idea of the "lord-n-lady" is another eclectic belief by which Gardner took the idea of say..."Yin and Yang" and blended it with Jung style archetypes thus creating an original view of the Gods as a whole, which seems to have later become a way of claiming all gods and goddesses as Wiccan, but I doubt that was Gardner's idea lol.
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Post by Senbecc on Apr 18, 2007 18:51:14 GMT -5
You should seriously consider playing with Lala in the Eastern and Indigenous boards.
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