DO YOU BELIEVE IN MAGIC?

[tanath]

wicca, as it is today is a new religion. since it's impossible to know exactly what the witches of the past believed and why and how they practiced it it's impossible to recreate it.if you went back and asked those people if they were wiccan they would have no idea what you're talking about.

it's the same with any pre- to early-christianity paganistic practices. greek, roman, celtic, norse, they were all distorted, changed, and demonized to varying degrees. because of that what we know of them, and how people practice them today, has been filtered through the catholic church and reconstructed from archiological and paleological finds. it paints a more accurate, but by no means exact, picture.

[Senbecc]

tanath said:

wicca, as it is today is a new religion. since it's impossible to know exactly what the witches of the past believed and why and how they practiced it it's impossible to recreate it.if you went back and asked those people if they were wiccan they would have no idea what you're talking about.

Well, if you asked them if they were "Wicca" they would have thought you were asking if the were a male practitioner of sorcery...

it's the same with any pre- to early-christianity paganistic practices. greek, roman, celtic, norse, they were all distorted, changed, and demonized to varying degrees. because of that what we know of them, and how people practice them today, has been filtered through the catholic church and reconstructed from archiological and paleological finds. it paints a more accurate, but by no means exact, picture.

This would be my question to those who feel Wicca is some ancient Celtic practice...Where is the documentation, where are the archaeological evidences, the physical and literary proofs by which we work to reconstruct other cultures? I mean we HAVE these things for Greek, Roman Celtic etc. reconstructionists, where is Gardner's other than a B.O.S. which he is known to have falsified to validate his path?

I know I'm being a bit hard on them, but I've been made to believe the article is the consensus attitude of every Gard on the block and it just cracks me up to hear them call anyone "fluffs".

[Senbecc]

^^ The above being said, I have come to the point these days that I have more respect for the 14 yr. old flying vampire wiccan Jedi, than I do most Gardnerians I have met...Though I have met one or two...MoonWind who was the first Global mod. of PM once said and I quote..."The only secrets left in Gardnerian Wica is that there are no more secrets." Which was why I think sh had become so eclectic in the first place if I remember that conversation correctly.

[KittyLane]

admin said:

This would be my question to those who feel Wicca is some ancient Celtic practice...Where is the documentation, where are the archaeological evidences, the physical and literary proofs by which we work to reconstruct other cultures? I mean we HAVE these things for Greek, Roman Celtic etc. reconstructionists, where is Gardner's other than a B.O.S. which he is known to have falsified to validate his path?

I know I'm being a bit hard on them, but I've been made to believe the article is the consensus attitude of every Gard on the block and it just cracks me up to hear them call anyone "fluffs".

not sure what you are meaning by this, can you be more elaborate?
because as we all know that almost every pagan path is a blend of more than one. how can you not be without a handing down of exact text and practices?

Common misconception that needs to be cleared up: witchcraft is not wicca, and wicca is not witchcraft. you can have wiccan witchcraft. and you can just be a wiccan. you can just be a witch. being one or any of those combinations does not make you fluffy nor does it take away from the practices.

[Senbecc]

evilkitty12582 said:

admin said:

This would be my question to those who feel Wicca is some ancient Celtic practice...Where is the documentation, where are the archaeological evidences, the physical and literary proofs by which we work to reconstruct other cultures? I mean we HAVE these things for Greek, Roman Celtic etc. reconstructionists, where is Gardner's other than a B.O.S. which he is known to have falsified to validate his path?

I know I'm being a bit hard on them, but I've been made to believe the article is the consensus attitude of every Gard on the block and it just cracks me up to hear them call anyone "fluffs".

not sure what you are meaning by this, can you be more elaborate?
because as we all know that almost every pagan path is a blend of more than one. how can you not be without a handing down of exact text and practices?

Common misconception that needs to be cleared up: witchcraft is not wicca, and wicca is not witchcraft. you can have wiccan witchcraft. and you can just be a wiccan. you can just be a witch. being one or any of those combinations does not make you fluffy nor does it take away from the practices.

oooo Brang it woman..

because as we all know that almost every pagan path is a blend of more than one. how can you not be without a handing down of exact text and practices

If it is a reconstructionist path, then no it isn't a blend of more than one, as if it were, then it would no longer be a reconstructionist path. The way we follow the texts in the Irish tradition is that we learn to read what the Filidh or poets are telling us about the bloodlines, and how the gods, and indeed most any character can be traced to much older gods and goddesses if we learn to look. This is why Druids, and most other Celtic traditions seldom set themselves to one Irish culture. Any student of a particular Celtic culture can learn from another Celtic culture and put the knowledge gained there into practice and still call themselves a reconstructionist, however if one takes from the say Greek or Roman cultures then no, it is no longer a pure path.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that being eclectic is bad, I'm just saying that if your path is indeed eclectic why flame and BS others (as the author of the OP has) for being eclectic when your eclectic?

An eclectic, flaming an eclectic, for being eclectic....See now what my issue is?

Common misconception that needs to be cleared up: witchcraft is not wicca, and wicca is not witchcraft. you can have wiccan witchcraft. and you can just be a wiccan. you can just be a witch. being one or any of those combinations does not make you fluffy nor does it take away from the practices.

I agree actually...I see Wicca as a religion...A well known religious philosophical practice which encompasses the old practices of Witchcraft which wasn't a religion as much as a philosophy. A Witch can know as many gods as they want and never have to see any divine solar, and lunar duality, a Wiccan by definition to my mind is someone who does.

[KittyLane]

admin said:

evilkitty12582 said:

not sure what you are meaning by this, can you be more elaborate?
because as we all know that almost every pagan path is a blend of more than one. how can you not be without a handing down of exact text and practices?

Common misconception that needs to be cleared up: witchcraft is not wicca, and wicca is not witchcraft. you can have wiccan witchcraft. and you can just be a wiccan. you can just be a witch. being one or any of those combinations does not make you fluffy nor does it take away from the practices.

oooo Brang it woman..

If it is a reconstructionist path, then no it isn't a blend of more than one, as if it were, then it would no longer be a reconstructionist path.

ok thats one....

The way we follow the texts in the Irish tradition is that we learn to read what the Filidh or poets are telling us about the bloodlines, and how the gods, and indeed most any character can be traced to much older gods and goddesses if we learn to look. This is why Druids, and most other Celtic traditions seldom set themselves to one Irish culture. Any student of a particular Celtic culture can learn from another Celtic culture and put the knowledge gained there into practice and still call themselves a reconstructionist, however if one takes from the say Greek or Roman cultures then no, it is no longer a pure path.

no argument there.....

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that being eclectic is bad, I'm just saying that if your path is indeed eclectic why flame and BS others (as the author of the OP has) for being eclectic when your eclectic?

you did not say anything about ecclectic until now. you just said wicca................

An eclectic, flaming an eclectic, for being eclectic....See now what my issue is?

yes, kinda like a discordian having rules.............

Common misconception that needs to be cleared up: witchcraft is not wicca, and wicca is not witchcraft. you can have wiccan witchcraft. and you can just be a wiccan. you can just be a witch. being one or any of those combinations does not make you fluffy nor does it take away from the practices.

I agree actually...I see Wicca as a religion...A well known religious philosophical practice which encompasses the old practices of Witchcraft which wasn't a religion as much as a philosophy. A Witch can know as many gods as they want and never have to see any divine solar, and lunar duality, a Wiccan by definition to my mind is someone who does.

sometimes seeing it as that messes it up.....because religion is always associated with the christian god.


oh and its on!!!!!!!!!!!

[Senbecc]

you did not say anything about ecclectic until now. you just said wicca................

Well, yes, I said that Wicca is an eclectic path, and it is.

yes, kinda like a discordian having rules.............

The triad of craziness?

sometimes seeing it as that messes it up.....because religion is always associated with the christian god.

Well not if your Pagan...

oh and its on!!!!!!!!!!!

[KittyLane]

admin said:

you did not say anything about ecclectic until now. you just said wicca................

Well, yes, I said that Wicca is an eclectic path, and it is.

what? there is a ecclectic path, but not all wiccans are that. ;D

[Senbecc]

evilkitty12582 said:

admin said:

what? there is a ecclectic path, but not all wiccans are that. ;D

I would agree if you had said "not all Witches were eclectic. However as we have agreed the one god, one goddess thing is of strictly Wiccan origin, so if you are say A Faery Wiccan who dumps the elements for the treasures and practices ONLY Irish ways, yet believe in a divine duality then you are still eclectic.

[KittyLane]

admin said:

evilkitty12582 said:

I would agree if you had said "not all Witches were eclectic. However as we have agreed the one god, one goddess thing is of strictly Wiccan origin, so if you are say A Faery Wiccan who dumps the elements for the treasures and practices ONLY Irish ways, yet believe in a divine duality then you are still eclectic.

ECLECTIC WICCA is a broad category - it includes a number of newer traditions / groups that have a cohesive tradition but without some elements that define Traditional Wicca, as well as many self-trained solitaries. The main distinction that has evolved between Eclectic Wicca and NeoWicca is that Eclectic Wicca retains a systemic core praxis directly related to that of Traditional Wicca, where NeoWicca most often has such little resemblance to Traditional Wiccan practice that it sometimes isn't even recognizable as a related religion.


WICCA is a nature-oriented (not nature-worshipping), initiatory, pagan mystery religion based on the traditions and beliefs of tribal Europe, with significant influence from Western magical traditions and a ritual structure based on the writings and practices of Gerald Gardner and the covens of the New Forest region.

Witchcraft today, a Witch is a woman or man who practices a life-affirming, Earth- and nature-oriented religion, honoring Divinity in female as well as (or instead of) male aspects, and practicing Magic (which some Witches spell "magick," to distinguish it from stage illusions). There are many different traditions of Witches, encompassing many beliefs in addition to these. Some traditions are practiced by women only, and recognize only the Divine Feminine, the Goddess. Others include men and recognize a male god in addition to the Goddess. Some traditions may date back to before the Spanish Inquisition, others have been in existence for only a few years. The strength of the Witches' religion (also called "the Craft" or "Wicca") lies in its diversity; it is a living, growing religious tradition.

www.tangledmoon.org/faq.htm

all different with individual flavors. but links together, it does not have to be together

[Senbecc]

WICCA is a nature-oriented (not nature-worshipping), initiatory, pagan mystery religion based on the traditions and beliefs of tribal Europe, with significant influence from Western magical traditions and a ritual structure based on the writings and practices of Gerald Gardner and the covens of the New Forest region.

Eclecticism
Eclecticism is a conceptual approach that does not hold rigidly to a single paradigm or set of assumptions, but instead draws upon multiple theories, styles, or ideas to gain complementary insights into a subject, or applies different theories in particular cases.

www.answers.com/topic/eclecticism

The practice of selecting or borrowing from earlier styles and combining the borrowed elements.
www.ackland.org/tours/classes/glossary.html

Now that said, the Classical greek elements are not of tribal European origin, or the four Latin sabbats, or the Eastern philosophy of Karma, or the Tree of life, or it's Christian aspects...Though tribal European practice and belief are in there too, given the above definitions what does that make Gardnerian Wicca?

[KittyLane]

i will post back! lol its dinner time, must slave over the stove...............

[Senbecc]

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[Senbecc]

There is also the entymologistical evidence of the discrepancies surrounding the word "Wicca". Some claim it stems from a Saxon word, others a Welsh word, and yet others a Gaelic term. None of these agree with each other about the root or the meaning of the word. And as for claiming it as a Gaelic term (Witta), the letter "W" was never a part of the Gaelic language except for in borrow-words, so neither Wicca nor Witta as a derivation could be Gaelic. As a student of Irish Gaelic, I have found that the sound [w] does exist in Irish and Scootish Gaelic as a "mh" or "bh", like the [w] in the current pronunciation of Samhain [SOW-ihn]. But the "w" rarely occurs at the beginning of a Gaelic word, and even more rarely in front of the slender 'i' sound. So there is next to no linguistic evidence that the word "wicca" or "witta" could be a Gaelic word.

LoL, Kitty...

[KittyLane]

admin said:

There is also the entymologistical evidence of the discrepancies surrounding the word "Wicca". Some claim it stems from a Saxon word, others a Welsh word, and yet others a Gaelic term. None of these agree with each other about the root or the meaning of the word. And as for claiming it as a Gaelic term (Witta), the letter "W" was never a part of the Gaelic language except for in borrow-words, so neither Wicca nor Witta as a derivation could be Gaelic. As a student of Irish Gaelic, I have found that the sound [w] does exist in Irish and Scootish Gaelic as a "mh" or "bh", like the [w] in the current pronunciation of Samhain [SOW-ihn]. But the "w" rarely occurs at the beginning of a Gaelic word, and even more rarely in front of the slender 'i' sound. So there is next to no linguistic evidence that the word "wicca" or "witta" could be a Gaelic word.

LoL, Kitty...

what you laughing at?
LOL


why is it always wicca that gets picked on? lol really!

Gardnerian - This is the tradition founded by Gerald Gardner, brought public in 1951, and is considered one of the main "root" traditions for BTW. The coven is the basis of all Gardnerian organization with each coven having it's own personality. Gender polarity is an essential hallmark, with almost everything arranged male to female, female to male. The original work of Gerald and his High Priestesses is preserved unchanged as the required core material, with expansion and creativity encouraged as long each legacy is identified appropriately. Other identifying hallmarks are that strict initiatory procedures are followed, ritual nudity is required, and there is no laity recognized.

www.homecircle.info/LinksOther.html

From the best that anyone can prove, Gerald Gardner invented modern Wicca using bits and pieces of folklore, ceremonial magic, spiritualism, and odds and ends. So our Old Religion appears to be no older than about 50 years old. But just to keep a bit of mystery in the subject... recent review of the records in London has shown that there was a woman named Dorothy Clutterbuck who was born in India, was the right age to be the woman who initiated Gardner, and who was living in the right area of England at the time that Gardner was there.

So where does that leave us. Well, you can always go on taking the myth at face value.

Be honest with yourself. We aren't practicing the same religion our ancestors practiced. I follow a Celtic path, but I certainly don't practice human sacrifice or read the future in the entrails of a sheep. In many cases, such as the Celts, no one knows how they practiced their religion since none of it was ever written down.

So does it matter if this isn't that Old Time Religion the myths say it is? I mean, every religion was new once upon a time! I say that if it meets your spiritual needs, if it connects you with the Divine, if it benefits the community, it doesn't matter whether a religion is a million years old or invented last Tuesday.
www.tangledmoon.org/wiccan_myth.htm


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so come on lets all love one another for the individuals we are! like it says everything and everyone was new(to life, to your path) once!