|
Post by Senbecc on Jul 3, 2006 3:52:25 GMT -5
look ye obviously dont get it I view the American (north too) attachment to bloodlines nazish It would give you very little claim to being irish. I agree that being irish is being part of the culture. but bar one dictionary definition none of ye seem to know what an Archetype is or what part they play in wicca or why I wouldnt view that as worshipping a god. Im going to take the time to answer everyones questions and angered replies but after that unless someone can explain why Wiccans steal gods from cultures they dont belong to and to use as Archetypes Im not replying because all Im doing is feeding directionless anger I think if you can't respond showing a little respect for others beliefs, then that might be for the best. As this thread is beginning to disturb my calm... You have been given a definition to Archetype, and I have shown my own knowledge on the subject and you simply ignored the post. I don't see why anyone else would bother. I've told you once to tone down your posts Ardri, as did a Mod. My patiants are beginning to waver. If you can't show some respect in your posting, then don't post. PERIOD. I've had enough.
|
|
|
Post by ardri79 on Jul 3, 2006 4:01:04 GMT -5
Im in work... ...Im not ignoring anyone
Im sorry if yer offended but Ive been off sick since wed with no internet at home.
I said Id get around to it today and I will.
|
|
|
Post by ardri79 on Jul 3, 2006 4:46:31 GMT -5
Actually, what I asked was if you believed it was equally offensive that we honor the spirits of the land I inhabit, I did say that I honour them when i go there, so no I dont find it offensive, but natives may. You wrote..." Gaelic gods are tied to parts of the land in Ireland"... are you not the one limiting their power and intentions with such a statement? The first part of that sentence was far be it from me to limit the powers of a God. nd according to legend and my experiance they are tied to certain areas of Ireland. I asked HOW someone meets Gods from Ireland in America because I was interested. Is it only Wiccan practices that offend you in this regard? Yes only Celtic wicca offends me because Celtic Wiccan ritual uses my native gods as Archetypes, i find it disrespectfull and detrimental to our culture. ...although i did study with an draíocht féin I found their practices too Qabalistic for my tastes. Has ADF begun using Archetypes now too?
|
|
|
Post by ardri79 on Jul 3, 2006 5:03:23 GMT -5
Archetype; Original model/pattern. Definition Webster's Dictionary. Answer my question, do I have the right to worship the Ancestors of my forefathers. Is my Irishness to diluted? My people were/are the Donnevan's from county Cork. I can name 7 generations of my family here. You sir, insult the very culture you bemoan the death and destruction of. I do not see myself as a"Faux hippie." Nor to I attempt to reach "high status," through exploitation of any Deity. If a culture cannot grow and adapt it will die. I would be interested in just who can reach the lofty bar you have set. By the By you need not expect an old cat like me to want or need an apology, I'm made of tougher stuff.>^..^< If ye read my first post its not websters definition of an Archetype that wiccans are concerned with its Carl Jungs. Jung is the Origion of the ALL GODS ARE ONE GOD Wiccan thing. Which in my opinion is Hippish at its lowest level of understanding and on its highest an attempt at deicide if not cultural genocide. Ye can start yer research here if ye like. www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/jung.htmlIf a culture cannot grow and adapt it will die thats true enough and Irish Culture has evolved where it survived but it has nearly been extinguished by 800 years of occupation. There are 5 million people in ireland out of those only 100,000 can speak as Gaelge out of those only 10,000 use Irish as their first language. Saying that our native gods (passed down through our culture from time immemorial) being misrepresented in wiccan books (which litter the shelves of every book store) is damaging our culture is an understatement Set a lofty bar? marcus had surpassed it before he hit puberty Senbec surpassed it though study despite living in a foreign culture its only lofty if you're afraid to read.
|
|
|
Post by flowerfaeryqueen on Jul 3, 2006 8:28:38 GMT -5
steal?? ???no offence, but if someone converted to, say, islam, and they werent from arabia, or wherever it started, would they be persecuted for not being arabian? no. i have heard of british non- arabians who are muslims.
its the same thing. if people feel a calling from the celtic gods, and arent irish are they stealing it from the irish who worship them also?
just because someone else worships the same gods you worship, doesnt mean it is stolen. its more like its shared, and frankly, gods dont belong to you, so you have no right to claim them over others. by all means be protective, though. i can see where you are coming from ardri.
|
|
|
Post by Senbecc on Jul 3, 2006 8:33:41 GMT -5
Im in work... ...Im not ignoring anyone Im sorry if yer offended but Ive been off sick since wed with no internet at home. I said Id get around to it today and I will. I'm not offended, I just don't care for the "what you believe is wrong" type threads. You seem to want to show me respect and that's good. You will always have the same in return, however part of showing respect to an admin. of a message board IMO would be to show equal respect to his posters and their various opinions, you don't necessarily have to agree with those opinions and you are completely free to debate them, but we are all a part of a greater whole, and have come together to learn and grow from each other. That being said, I have absolutely no problem with this thread what-so-ever. In fact some of what you pointed out I agree with, then again some of what your opposition has to say I also agree with. Everyone is making allot of since, and everyone (and I don't just mean Ardri) needs to chill out, take a step back and reassess the situation. I understand this may be a touchy subject for all involved, and seems to be touching a few nerves on both sides of the fence. However the discussion will go no where if all the words are limited to angry ones...OK everybody?
|
|
|
Post by ardri79 on Jul 3, 2006 8:46:49 GMT -5
steal?? ???no offence, but if someone converted to, say, islam, and they werent from arabia, or wherever it started Thats true if you're foreign and following the ways of the pagan Gael but not true if you're following a wiccan path. they are completely different faiths. its like a christian claiming he has a relationship with Allah its the same thing. if people feel a calling from the celtic gods, and arent irish are they stealing it from the irish who worship them also? This is the major point im trying to make. That wiccans can feel the call of a God and instead of woshipping them as a God as they have been for 1000's of years they use the imagery of that God passed down through legend and preserved by their culture as a tool better suited to them in ritual. That isnt worshipping its using. The stealing part comes when Wiccans publish books quoting the Gaelic gods are this and that and this is how you get so and so to do this for you. Most of its horsecrap but because of wiccas trendy popularity those are the only books available to people when they go looking for their own faith... even in Ireland. As a footnote I would never dream of "summoning" a god and sending them on errants for whatever whim touches me. Summon oengus for love spells Airmed for healing potions... can you imagine how offensive that must be for a god to take an interest in someone only to be told to run an errant and then dismissed....
|
|
|
Post by Senbecc on Jul 3, 2006 9:00:31 GMT -5
The first part of that sentence was far be it from me to limit the powers of a God. nd according to legend and my experiance they are tied to certain areas of Ireland. I asked HOW someone meets Gods from Ireland in America because I was interested. I think one of the first steps is a serious study of various Celtic gods. I feel that the gods can be met within their stories as given within the texts. The gods don't necessarily live only in the land. They live in the fire that burns the blood to learn more, they live in the very DNA that can be traced back to the beginning, and they live within the very words of their stories given by the very skilled Filidh. Have you ever found yourself reading the texts and dramatically acting them out for yourself? Have you ever allowed yourself to become so entranced by the texts that 4 hrs. seems like 10 minutes? It is the three Druids who came across the sea with Partholon to the land, as sky surrounded. We must each begin with Partholon's journey, we must each employ our inner Druids known as Fios, Eolas, and Fochmarc, whether we are following a Celtic path a Norse path, Native American, Streghan and the list goes on. An advanced study of any given tradition will have it's own names for these three forms of knowledge which lead to wisdom, and the creation and recreation at times of the self, or in the case of the Irish texts Ireland. Those who choose to follow a Celtic tradition create and fashion their inner being and their selves just as the gods created and fashioned old Eire.
|
|
|
Post by raeven on Jul 3, 2006 11:45:18 GMT -5
I just wanted to share the angry and ignorant private message which is actually shows the basis for all this persons ferver. He is actually anti american and that is what this all stems from. This is the Pm that was sent to me this morning. What is really funny about this is that my husband is British.. he came over here 4 years ago. His father was in the navy and he was born in Alexandria. He grew up in Wales. His mother is Irish and his dad is Welsh so believe me I know exactly how an Irishman converses.. intimately. I knew exactly where this was leading and talked to him about it and you know what he said? He said it would indeed lead to this and the true root of anger was deeper. I have to agree. Pathetic really isnt it? Someone doesnt agree with your religious ideas and so you try to bring in politics and start an even bigger disagreement of which you have no idea where I and many others stand. Whats wrong honey.. did you get your feelings hurt?
|
|
|
Post by raeven on Jul 3, 2006 11:55:39 GMT -5
I would just like to know this .....if you dont live in Ireland you can't worship Celts then exactly what does a person who has worshipped a certain celtic god all their life do when they move away? Because obviously according to you they can't even pray for safe keeping to those gods since they aren't on Irish soil. (What kind of a belief is that in a god?) I suppose they have to give up that god and go play with someone else? Oh but wait.. if they have celtic blood and aren't from there.. then the people in that land will not let them worship it.. I guess they are screwed then huh. In case people are wondering .. yes I am playing devils advocate and I have been all through this thread.. because someone here is as closed minded as a fundie on here and needs to learn something new.
And I definetly have to tell you this.. if the Gaelic Gods are as weak in spirit and thought and as limited as you seem to think that they are then I will have to say No Thank You.. I prefer my Gods to have a little snap crackel pop.
|
|
|
Post by raeven on Jul 3, 2006 12:11:36 GMT -5
steal?? ???no offence, but if someone converted to, say, islam, and they werent from arabia, or wherever it started Thats true if you're foreign and following the ways of the pagan Gael but not true if you're following a wiccan path. they are completely different faiths. its like a christian claiming he has a relationship with Allah its the same thing. if people feel a calling from the celtic gods, and arent irish are they stealing it from the irish who worship them also? This is the major point im trying to make. That wiccans can feel the call of a God and instead of woshipping them as a God as they have been for 1000's of years they use the imagery of that God passed down through legend and preserved by their culture as a tool better suited to them in ritual. That isnt worshipping its using. The stealing part comes when Wiccans publish books quoting the Gaelic gods are this and that and this is how you get so and so to do this for you. Most of its horsecrap but because of wiccas trendy popularity those are the only books available to people when they go looking for their own faith... even in Ireland. As a footnote I would never dream of "summoning" a god and sending them on errants for whatever whim touches me. Summon oengus for love spells Airmed for healing potions... can you imagine how offensive that must be for a god to take an interest in someone only to be told to run an errant and then dismissed.... Well here is a suggestion then.. if you dont want them to be so trendy why don't the people instead of being offended.. open up and start to teach the Wiccans traditional witchcraft. There are alot of people who have chosen that path simply out of need because they get turned away at every door. And then they get put down and made fun of because they arent doing the way that the traditionals do it. Its nonsense is what it is. You don't want to teach them the rules of the playground you are on and then want to bully them and look superior when they don't know the rules to play by. So they have found another playground and made up their own rules.. sounds right to me.
|
|
|
Post by wren on Jul 3, 2006 12:49:15 GMT -5
I just want to say , ardri79, that I do not speak for ADF in any way, shape or form. I have been to a local grove and am a member of ADF and, no, they do not "use archetypes." I was merely trying, again, to say that some who are not of blood ties to a country may still choose to worship those gods and goddesses, with no disrespect or damage IMHO. As for me, whatever god or goddess I honor, I do not use them for errands. I understand the sentiment in that regard, as I would honor them and perhaps ask for their strength or guidance in a certain situation or a bit of knowledge I am seeking if they choose to assist me but not "please go do this or get that for me."
On the other hand (are we running out of hands yet?), what someone else does in the privacy of their ritual is between them and the deities. If the deities are offended, I believe they would let that be known or simply ignore the petitioner perhaps (after all no answer is still an answer). As for Wiccan books and any other neo-Pagan books that offend because they "use" the Celtic (or any other deities) as archetypes, one must read and study and find the truth within themselves. No one author or book has all the answers. If it were easy and a single book held all the answers, it would not be worth the search. Wicca or any other path is not a simple thing, though it seems there are books for all the paths that indicate otherwise I suppose. For those who jump in and don't look beyond a single book, they will probably move on just as quickly. I found, in my readings on Wicca, that it was not for me. Thus, my current studies regarding Druidry.
Though I did not misunderstood your original post, ardri79, I still apologize. I was trying to understand, though I am not a Celtic Wiccan, if you also felt the same way about other paths who feel lead to the Celtic Gods and Goddesses and if you felt the same way about Scottish (for example) descendants who also feel drawn to Celtic pagan paths though born in, say, America. While I appreciate your concerns regarding the Irish culture (Scotland has suffered, too), I resist the idea that Celtic=Irish and it was that to which I responded initially and that which I initially sought to understand.
|
|
|
Post by Marcus on Jul 3, 2006 13:51:12 GMT -5
I just wanted to share the angry and ignorant private message which is actually shows the basis for all this persons ferver. He is actually anti american and that is what this all stems from. This is the Pm that was sent to me this morning. What is really funny about this is that my husband is British.. he came over here 4 years ago. His father was in the navy and he was born in Alexandria. He grew up in Wales. His mother is Irish and his dad is Welsh so believe me I know exactly how an Irishman converses.. intimately. I knew exactly where this was leading and talked to him about it and you know what he said? He said it would indeed lead to this and the true root of anger was deeper. I have to agree. Pathetic really isnt it? Someone doesnt agree with your religious ideas and so you try to bring in politics and start an even bigger disagreement of which you have no idea where I and many others stand. Whats wrong honey.. did you get your feelings hurt? Raeven with all respect that is not an anti american thing. It is more a kind of humour. Its hard to explain but allmost everyone in Europe would make those kind of jokes. It was just a joke. Ard ri is not trying to say that you have to be in Ireland or be Irish to respect or worship Irish gods. The only argument he is making is against Wiccans. Ardri wrote "if you're foreign and following the ways of the pagan Gael but not true if you're following a wiccan path." I actually agree with what Ard Ri is saying. I dont think the phrase "why do wiccans steal the Gods" is the best term to use. More like why do Wiccans use the gods. As Ardri said wouldnt the gids find it abit disrespectable to be "summoned" just for a personal spell? What is everyones opinion on this? also....Try to refrain from posting private messages on the forum for all to see. If you have a problem with a provate message contact one of the moderators. They are after all private messages and when people start posting other peoples messages it defeats the purpose of the whole private message tool.
|
|
|
Post by raeven on Jul 3, 2006 15:11:54 GMT -5
I totally disagree wtih everything he has said and I stick to it completely. For the exact same reason I tell the fundies I don't agree with them. All these ideas were written or passed down as TRADITION by MAN. How can anyone of you possibly begin to know what the gods like other then what you have been taught by MEN/Women? I suppose I could make up some rules too and maybe in a few hundred years everyone would say everyone had to play by them as well and it would just really be the exact same thing.
They are mans rules made by man .. upheld by men and their ideas of what those Gods like and dislike. How can you possibly know that it doesnt please them to be called on even for menial things? Other then what another human has told you?
C'mon people if you ever want to be anything you have to start to think outside of the box. Study the box, love the box keep it in your pocket and revere it.. but in order to learn and grow you have to step outside of that comfort zone. Magic is thought made into action, energy shaped by will alone.. if all you can do is think one way then you have limited yourself and you will never be more then the sum of what you have been taught .. by man.
As for the private messages.. here is a quick tip.. don't send me hateful ones and I wont show them around.
|
|
|
Post by stormcat on Jul 3, 2006 18:38:17 GMT -5
Hmmm, the light has gone on in the kitchen! You're just an ornery critter, let's say a Badger or a polecat, want to scrap. Anger feeds the negative energy floating around. I admit I was giving it alittle the other day. I've always been proud of my Irish ancestors, I believe this is where my sixth sense came from. I realize now that you're projecting out of frustration. I think you should write a Thread about your Gaelic Gods here. You could use your energy in a positive light. Then again if it's scrappin' you're looking for keep up this thread...Peace out to you, kin folk. >^..^<
|
|