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Post by tahlia on Mar 24, 2007 14:05:15 GMT -5
No I certainly wasn't trying to make light of it. It seems to me that what you are saying though is because christianity is the only religion that has proved itself capable of meshing with celtic spirituality/philosophy (and thankfully documented all the beliefs and traditions that it tried so hard to irradicate) that it is the only religion that has the right to do so. That is what I felt I might be misunderstanding. If that is what you are saying, then I'm really not following your logic. You obviously know much more about this than I do and I'm not trying to be difficult. It seems to me though that if it can mesh with something as (dare I say it?) closed-minded, and literally carved in stone, as christianity that there must be many other religions that it could just as easily incorporate. Or be incorporated by as the case may be. Thank you both for helping to clear up my confusion about the druid/ice cream issue. Y'all are a little goofy but I think I like it. lol OK, I'm obviously not saying this as well as I thought I was. Firstly bare in mind that the class of Christianity isn't the run of the mill types you get at your door step here in the west. Secondly, it should be remembered that I am with Marcus to a point on Druidry, and it's teachings being strictly Celtic teachings, I do not see Pagan Druidry or Christian Druidry as eclectic. The reason Celtic Christianity melds with Druidism IMO is because of it's Celtic ties and ties to tradition and Pagan Ways of Ireland (Ireland being my example as that is where my own studies are). The Celtic lineages span far before Ireland, they go to Celtic Spain, Gaul, Britain, etc. even Turkey, all over Europe, traditions and practices differed, evolved and changed but were always Celtic. I see Celtic Christianity as a part of this evolution. Bards and Druids didn't cease to be, they simply changed form, but just as they had been for generations they were still Celtic, and of Celtic lineage. The Filidh knew this to be true which is why they stayed so close to the teachings of the pre-christian Bards and Druids. Celtic Christianity is a part of our lineage. Druidry is a strictly Celtic path, I personally am a strictly Pagan Druid traditionalist and reconstructionist, I simply have no trouble seeing the line between Bard and Filidh. Now bare in mind also that it was more Pádraig who did most of the burning and eradicating with *some* backing I'm sure, however after this the Celtic Church worked to record the genealogies from memory, oral traditions, and probably some previous writings. Under brehon law such things were kept as they were the only changes being made usually was a biblical dating and biblical references to Pagan ways. Then the Norse came, but that's another story for another day.  Yay!!! I totally get what you are saying now. Thank you for taking that deep breath and explaining one more time. I still think I disagree to some extent but now I can see how your logic works here. |
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Post by wren on Mar 24, 2007 14:13:44 GMT -5
Trying to post as a guest...
First, if one 'other' religion is compatible with Druidry, they all can be. Its not a Chinese menu. I, for one, am in the camp that Druids are Druids and were polytheistic and therefore cannot be Christian now. But, I respect those who attempt to combine the two, or who attempt to combine Druidry with any other path. How can you say Christianity yes but wicca no for example?
Second, this easily assimilated Christianity you speak of still bothers me. What you are talking about took hundreds of years, not a few months. The Celts did not look at Christianity one day and decide then and there to take it on. The Druids did not simply become Christian Priests overnight. That it eventually seeped its way into their beliefs may be a fact but I still see no evidence of this 'ease' of which you speak.
Third, I see Druidry as a way of life (yes, lala!), an all-encompassing way of living. My religion is a polytheistic pagan one but my way of life is that of a Druid. It is as much a part of my 'religion' as it is my approach to all else in my life. It cannot be separated. Your eyes see as a Druid. Your heart feels as a Druid. Your mind thinks as a Druid. Your spirit and soul soar as a Druid. It is who you are, not what you are.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Mar 24, 2007 14:19:06 GMT -5
Trying to post as a guest... First, if one 'other' religion is compatible with Druidry, they all can be. Its not a Chinese menu. I, for one, am in the camp that Druids are Druids and were polytheistic and therefore cannot be Christian now. But, I respect those who attempt to combine the two, or who attempt to combine Druidry with any other path. How can you say Christianity yes but wicca no for example? Second, this easily assimilated Christianity you speak of still bothers me. What you are talking about took hundreds of years, not a few months. The Celts did not look at Christianity one day and decide then and there to take it on. The Druids did not simply become Christian Priests overnight. That it eventually seeped its way into their beliefs may be a fact but I still see no evidence of this 'ease' of which you speak. Third, I see Druidry as a way of life (yes, lala!), an all-encompassing way of living. My religion is a polytheistic pagan one but my way of life is that of a Druid. It is as much a part of my 'religion' as it is my approach to all else in my life. It cannot be separated. Your eyes see as a Druid. Your heart feels as a Druid. Your mind thinks as a Druid. Your spirit and soul soar as a Druid. It is who you are, not what you are. I completely agree with you Wren... It's soo not a chinese menu... But, if you are going to allow one combination plate, then, you should make allowances for all... You Suck! |
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 24, 2007 19:24:18 GMT -5
Trying to post as a guest... First, if one 'other' religion is compatible with Druidry, they all can be. Its not a Chinese menu. I, for one, am in the camp that Druids are Druids and were polytheistic and therefore cannot be Christian now. But, I respect those who attempt to combine the two, or who attempt to combine Druidry with any other path. How can you say Christianity yes but wicca no for example? Hiya sis, glad to see you're able to post as a guest now! I can say that because Wicca has absolutely no ties what-so-ever to Celtic tradition, Bardic practice, or Druidic philosophy. You're absolutely right, it isn't a "Chinese menu". Had Wicca had some close affiliation to the original Celts and had they been the ones who recorded how Celtic ways were viewed and practiced, then I would be making my case for DruidCraft now instead, but they weren't. Wicca isn't a part of Celtic history and tradition, Celtic Christianity is. If there were any evidence of battle fields or actual horse play of any kind I'd agree. I never said anything about over night, I believe actually the Druids of Ireland gave Pádraig hell for quite a while. Maewyn Succat (Pádraig) was 16 yrs. in slavery in Ireland before he escaped to Britain and France staying 12 years in a monastery in St. Germain where Pádraig is said to have been haunted by dreams of going back to Ireland, but the task was instead given to St. Palladius, when he failed Pádraig was sent to Ireland. During his twenty years in Ireland the Druids kidnapped him several times. You see the Druids had foreseen Pádraig's coming. In 433 he had arrived on La baal Tinne, and on the hill of Slane. It was visible across the plain to the seat of the high king at Tara. He and his few followers lit their fire, as the custom was for the High king to light his first then the rest of the people of Ireland. The Druids foresaw something else that night as well when they told the High King, "If that fire is not put out this night, it will never be extinguished in the whole of Ireland." The King Lóegaire was huffy, to say the least, but agreed to meet with Pádraig where it is said Pádraig explained the Holy trinity, in Pagan context using a three leafed clover. Lóegaire, it is said made peace, but never converted, but rather allowed Patrick to continue his preaching to the Irish people. It is said that Pádraig tried something new... He began using Pagan teachings in his Christian lessons. Pagan ritual, Pagan philosophy etc. instead of just trying to eradicate what was believed. For example on Festivals he would use bonfires just as the Irish had done for generations to honor the Gods, he also put a symbol of the sun of the Cross to symbolize what was being done, we now call it a Celtic Cross, so that the "melding" would seem more natural to the Irish. Now I'll be the first to admit that Pádraig pulled some stinkerly stuff while in Ireland, lighting the Pashcal fire, burning Druidic books and other such things, however the conversion of Ireland was in no-way the war some try to make it out to be. That is why Celtic Christianity has the right to claim Druid ways before a Wiccan. Had Gerald Gardner done these things, my philosophy would be quite different. I agree with, I am strictly Pagan, as I have said, and I see Druidry as a part of who I am, however being a Druid is a strictly traditional path, not a "Chinese buffet" as you put it earlier. One cannot claim to be a Druid IMO if they have no ties to Celtic ways. A Wiccan, Hindu, Greek, or Roman Druid is to me a New age idea, and while such things *may* be Druid inspired they are in no way Druidic philosophy. |
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Post by wren on Mar 24, 2007 22:38:48 GMT -5
Why is a Wiccan who honors Celtic tradition and Celtic deities any less entitled to that tradition than someone who is a Christian who also claims to practice druidry? If, as you say, the Celts eventually came to accept Christianity and have thus made it a part of their heritage (and you see that as perfectly acceptable as a basis for being a Christian Druid), is that not what the Wiccans of today who follow a Celtic path are doing? This evolution you cite is no less to a Christian Druid than what the Wiccans also claim to believe and base their religion upon.
Based upon what you've said, the Druids would have remained polytheistic, while incorporating Jesus into their pantheon. That is not what Christian Druids do. So, again I ask, how can one be a Christian Druid in the traditional sense? They would still qualify as your neo-pagan Wiccan, Hindu, Buddhist Druids...
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 25, 2007 15:20:53 GMT -5
Why is a Wiccan who honors Celtic tradition and Celtic deities any less entitled to that tradition than someone who is a Christian who also claims to practice druidry? If, as you say, the Celts eventually came to accept Christianity and have thus made it a part of their heritage (and you see that as perfectly acceptable as a basis for being a Christian Druid), is that not what the Wiccans of today who follow a Celtic path are doing? This evolution you cite is no less to a Christian Druid than what the Wiccans also claim to believe and base their religion upon. I would answer that as saying because they're Wiccan. To me there is no middle ground, you are either a Druid, or you're not. The Celtic Christians (Lets not forget the Celtic part) take their lineages directly from the prechristian Celts in Ireland as opposed to having borrowed the traditions as given by the Celts. I feel Celtic Christianity is in direct lineage, it is neither Christian or Pagan...It is Celtic Christianity. When Keith (Our Grove's Christian Druid) speaks on his beliefs, he calls Deity God, and the Sidhe of Ireland are something like the Angels and Nephilim. He feels a strong bond to the Catholic Church, and see's the Irish texts as a continuation of the knowledge and symbolism. I can't honestly say that his beliefs are all that different from my own really, though he doesn't put the Gods on as high of a level as you or I would. What is you feel a Christian Druid does that is so far out of the traditional sense? |
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Post by Der Trommler on Mar 26, 2007 7:42:42 GMT -5
I have a small agreement with John. The Celts were taken not by force but more of a slow conversion. Ireland, in present day, still celebate most of the same Pagan holidays (Imbolc, etc....). This should suggest that the Celts were able to keep the Paganism in their everyday life yet convert over to the new found religion. So, I would have to say yes to Druidry could work with Christianity.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Mar 26, 2007 13:48:25 GMT -5
I have a small agreement with John. The Celts were taken not by force but more of a slow conversion. Ireland, in present day, still celebate most of the same Pagan holidays (Imbolc, etc....). This should suggest that the Celts were able to keep the Paganism in their everyday life yet convert over to the new found religion. So, I would have to say yes to Druidry could work with Christianity.
I see that... But, what about other combinations? I think that if you can see some kind of logic that allows for one combination, then, there should be other paths that fit too |
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Post by Der Trommler on Mar 26, 2007 18:45:40 GMT -5
They possibly might but I haven't seen them tried yet. Christianity & Paganism has been tried for almost 2 millenium & seems to be working ok. It's not for me but I can see how some people can do that. I do see a resemblance of Native American shamans & the Celtic druids. There seems to be a sort of similarity to the Chinese mythos as well.
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 26, 2007 19:05:41 GMT -5
I have a small agreement with John. The Celts were taken not by force but more of a slow conversion. Ireland, in present day, still celebate most of the same Pagan holidays (Imbolc, etc....). This should suggest that the Celts were able to keep the Paganism in their everyday life yet convert over to the new found religion. So, I would have to say yes to Druidry could work with Christianity.
I see that... But, what about other combinations? I think that if you can see some kind of logic that allows for one combination, then, there should be other paths that fit too I'm not saying combinations can't work for the individual, I'm just saying they're not Druidry. Druidry is not an eclectic path, it is Celtic. Celtic Christianity is Celtic, from centuries ago. It isn't a new age movement from the 80's which borrows it's tenents and tells me that all gods are personifications of the lord n lady, or that Druids celibrate sabbats. Wiccans for example aren't Druids, because they are eclectic...IMHO. Now, don't get me wrong...I am not claiming Druidism to be some super secret sect, or that only another Druid can make you a Druid lol, Anyone who is determined enough can become a Druid, I am simply saying that there are certain things a Druid is, and certain things that they are not. |
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 26, 2007 19:36:11 GMT -5
They possibly might but I haven't seen them tried yet. Christianity & Paganism has been tried for almost 2 millenium & seems to be working ok. It's not for me but I can see how some people can do that. I do see a resemblance of Native American shamans & the Celtic druids. There seems to be a sort of similarity to the Chinese mythos as well. I have seen the similarities between Celtic belief and several other cultures. Native American ways are definitely one of these, as well as Hindu ways, allot of Lala's Eastern and Asian posts have reminded me of Celtic traditions. I think this is an example of the similarities in all world religions. Now: "Druidry is not a religion. It's a philosophy and you can worship a God or a Goddess, it's up to you. You can be a Christian or a Moslem or anything else and still be a Druid. "But while a Christian will say God made that tree, a Druid will say the energy of a creative force is in that tree." This statement IMO, is right and wrong for many reasons. For one thing he tells us that a druid can be what ever he wants to be...That simply is wrong. It isn't eclectic. I personally would agree with someone if the said Wicca isn't a religion etc. It is eclectic, Karma, Greek elements, Roman Holidays, Celtic holidays, OTO and golden dawn spell work, etc. Perhaps the Wiccan wouldn't agree but I personally would. This is exactly why Druidry only work within the realm of tradition. |
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 26, 2007 19:37:47 GMT -5
OK, I'm obviously not saying this as well as I thought I was. Firstly bare in mind that the class of Christianity isn't the run of the mill types you get at your door step here in the west. Secondly, it should be remembered that I am with Marcus to a point on Druidry, and it's teachings being strictly Celtic teachings, I do not see Pagan Druidry or Christian Druidry as eclectic. The reason Celtic Christianity melds with Druidism IMO is because of it's Celtic ties and ties to tradition and Pagan Ways of Ireland (Ireland being my example as that is where my own studies are). The Celtic lineages span far before Ireland, they go to Celtic Spain, Gaul, Britain, etc. even Turkey, all over Europe, traditions and practices differed, evolved and changed but were always Celtic. I see Celtic Christianity as a part of this evolution. Bards and Druids didn't cease to be, they simply changed form, but just as they had been for generations they were still Celtic, and of Celtic lineage. The Filidh knew this to be true which is why they stayed so close to the teachings of the pre-christian Bards and Druids. Celtic Christianity is a part of our lineage. Druidry is a strictly Celtic path, I personally am a strictly Pagan Druid traditionalist and reconstructionist, I simply have no trouble seeing the line between Bard and Filidh. Now bare in mind also that it was more Pádraig who did most of the burning and eradicating with *some* backing I'm sure, however after this the Celtic Church worked to record the genealogies from memory, oral traditions, and probably some previous writings. Under brehon law such things were kept as they were the only changes being made usually was a biblical dating and biblical references to Pagan ways. Then the Norse came, but that's another story for another day. Yay!!! I totally get what you are saying now. Thank you for taking that deep breath and explaining one more time. I still think I disagree to some extent but now I can see how your logic works here. LoL, yay! Glad I could help out some. |
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Post by tahlia on Mar 26, 2007 19:43:35 GMT -5
I see that... But, what about other combinations? I think that if you can see some kind of logic that allows for one combination, then, there should be other paths that fit too I'm not saying combinations can't work for the individual, I'm just saying they're not Druidry. Druidry is not an eclectic path, it is Celtic. Celtic Christianity is Celtic, from centuries ago. It isn't a new age movement from the 80's which borrows it's tenents and tells me that all gods are personifications of the lord n lady, or that Druids celibrate sabbats. Wiccans for example aren't Druids, because they are eclectic...IMHO. Now, don't get me wrong...I am not claiming Druidism to be some super secret sect, or that only another Druid can make you a Druid lol, Anyone who is determined enough can become a Druid, I am simply saying that there are certain things a Druid is, and certain things that they are not. Ok so Celtic Christianity...a combination of pagan celtic beliefs and traditions mixed with christianity. Mix that with druidry and BAM! That's eclectic! So by your logic you can't do that either because druidry isn't some new age eclectic practice. If you're gonna say it's not eclectic then you can't go mixing it with several other things. Those celtic pagan practices are not druidry. Celtic christianity isn't a mixture of druidry and christianity. It's a mixture of the average everyday peoples practices mixed with christianity. That's kinda like saying that before the missionaries brought christianity to the native americans, that all native americans were shamans. It just doesn't work. Either it CAN be mixed with ANY religion, or CANNOT to maintain it's purity and integrity. I just see no possible way to have it both ways. Wow! Aren't I the opinionated one today? lol |
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Mar 26, 2007 19:47:25 GMT -5
I see that... But, what about other combinations? I think that if you can see some kind of logic that allows for one combination, then, there should be other paths that fit too I'm not saying combinations can't work for the individual, I'm just saying they're not Druidry. Druidry is not an eclectic path, it is Celtic. Celtic Christianity is Celtic, from centuries ago. It isn't a new age movement from the 80's which borrows it's tenents and tells me that all gods are personifications of the lord n lady, or that Druids celibrate sabbats. Wiccans for example aren't Druids, because they are eclectic...IMHO. Now, don't get me wrong...I am not claiming Druidism to be some super secret sect, or that only another Druid can make you a Druid lol, Anyone who is determined enough can become a Druid, I am simply saying that there are certain things a Druid is, and certain things that they are not. *readies the AFD...... * I'm not suggesting that Druidry is an Eccletic Chinese Buffet... I'm only saying that I refuse to see that a combination of Christian beliefs and Druidry can meld and still be considered Druidic.... Yet, If I were to combine Druid and Buddhist beliefs and Druidry and not have it be considered Druidic... Look at the similar tenents, the beliefs, etc... They mirror one another... Some differences arise.. But, I see that they work or meld much easier than those of Druid and Christian... |
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Mar 26, 2007 19:49:24 GMT -5
Ok so Celtic Christianity...a combination of pagan celtic beliefs and traditions mixed with christianity. Mix that with druidry and BAM! That's eclectic! So by your logic you can't do that either because druidry isn't some new age eclectic practice. I completely agree |
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