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Post by Senbecc on Mar 23, 2007 17:19:47 GMT -5
"Druidry is not a religion. It's a philosophy and you can worship a God or a Goddess, it's up to you. You can be a Christian or a Moslem or anything else and still be a Druid. "But while a Christian will say God made that tree, a Druid will say the energy of a creative force is in that tree." Kieron, a North-East UK Druid.
How do people feel about this quote? How has this druid done at defining your practice? I have mixed feelings about the above quote...I'd like to start a discussion on what Druidry means to the individual.
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Mar 23, 2007 18:06:02 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings about the above quote...I'd like to start a discussion on what Druidry means to the individual. Well, I'm curious to know what you think of the above quote... |
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Post by Marcus on Mar 23, 2007 18:30:21 GMT -5
"Druidry is not a religion. It's a philosophy and you can worship a God or a Goddess, it's up to you. You can be a Christian or a Moslem or anything else and still be a Druid. "But while a Christian will say God made that tree, a Druid will say the energy of a creative force is in that tree." Kieron, a North-East UK Druid. How do people feel about this quote? How has this druid done at defining your practice? I have mixed feelings about the above quote...I'd like to start a discussion on what Druidry means to the individual. I do not agree with the quote in most senses. Druidry was the ancient path followed by the spiritual leaders of our ancestors tribes. They were traditionalists passing down stories and teachings from one generation to the next. There is a druid philosophy, yes i agree and it is used by many from different paths and spiritualities as alot of neo pagan paths use it as a foundation for their beliefs. But in my opinion the real Druidry was the practices of our ancestors spiritual leaders who were "pagan" and followed a strict belief structure. |
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 23, 2007 22:11:49 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings about the above quote...I'd like to start a discussion on what Druidry means to the individual. Well, I'm curious to know what you think of the above quote... LoL, well first why don't you tell us what that which you have uncovered on the subject at hand so far has come to mean to you?  |
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 23, 2007 23:03:38 GMT -5
"Druidry is not a religion. It's a philosophy and you can worship a God or a Goddess, it's up to you. You can be a Christian or a Moslem or anything else and still be a Druid. "But while a Christian will say God made that tree, a Druid will say the energy of a creative force is in that tree." Kieron, a North-East UK Druid. How do people feel about this quote? How has this druid done at defining your practice? I have mixed feelings about the above quote...I'd like to start a discussion on what Druidry means to the individual. I do not agree with the quote in most senses. Druidry was the ancient path followed by the spiritual leaders of our ancestors tribes. They were traditionalists passing down stories and teachings from one generation to the next. There is a druid philosophy, yes i agree and it is used by many from different paths and spiritualities as alot of neo pagan paths use it as a foundation for their beliefs. But in my opinion the real Druidry was the practices of our ancestors spiritual leaders who were "pagan" and followed a strict belief structure. I will say that I agree and disagree. Firstly I feel a Druid can be "Christian" but not Muslim, Greek, Wiccan or anything else. The reason I feel this way is for one, the relatively simple conversion of the Irish people to Christianity. In fact "Celtic Christianity" never became what the Roman Catholic church meant for it to become to say the least. The Celtic Church is a being in-and-of it's self. It is a melding of Irish Paganism and Catholicism. After Christianity came to Ireland, the pagan ways didn't simply stop. The teachings and the feats of the poets or bards were now the teaching of the Filidh or sacred poets who recorded Irish ways using the bible to record them. IMO in order to understand the ways of the ancestors one needs to understand the ways of the Church in order to follow the "lineage" back to the destination. Also every Druidic lineage from Ireland to Gaul learned from other cultures they came into contact with, they were no opposed to using what was learned there to strengthen their own culture and practice, from Greece to Rome to the Norse, so it is difficult to label them as traditionalists when they were obviously building as they went. To me following the path of a Druid is a lifetime quest to further, expand, and evolve knowledge. Religion in-and-of it's self is at times looked upon as dogma and/or cast in stone. To a Druid stone is only one of at least nine ways of viewing such and their qualities of being. While I don't agree Druidry is compatible with just any system of beliefs, I will say that it can encompass Christianity quite fully. |
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Post by tahlia on Mar 24, 2007 0:23:33 GMT -5
I do not agree with the quote in most senses. Druidry was the ancient path followed by the spiritual leaders of our ancestors tribes. They were traditionalists passing down stories and teachings from one generation to the next. There is a druid philosophy, yes i agree and it is used by many from different paths and spiritualities as alot of neo pagan paths use it as a foundation for their beliefs. But in my opinion the real Druidry was the practices of our ancestors spiritual leaders who were "pagan" and followed a strict belief structure. I will say that I agree and disagree. Firstly I feel a Druid can be "Christian" but not Muslim, Greek, Wiccan or anything else. The reason I feel this way is for one, the relatively simple conversion of the Irish people to Christianity. In fact "Celtic Christianity" never became what the Roman Catholic church meant for it to become to say the least. The Celtic Church is a being in-and-of it's self. It is a melding of Irish Paganism and Catholicism. After Christianity came to Ireland, the pagan ways didn't simply stop. The teachings and the feats of the poets or bards were now the teaching of the Filidh or sacred poets who recorded Irish ways using the bible to record them. IMO in order to understand the ways of the ancestors one needs to understand the ways of the Church in order to follow the "lineage" back to the destination. Also every Druidic lineage from Ireland to Gaul learned from other cultures they came into contact with, they were no opposed to using what was learned there to strengthen their own culture and practice, from Greece to Rome to the Norse, so it is difficult to label them as traditionalists when they were obviously building as they went. To me following the path of a Druid is a lifetime quest to further, expand, and evolve knowledge. Religion in-and-of it's self is at times looked upon as dogma and/or cast in stone. To a Druid stone is only one of at least nine ways of viewing such and their qualities of being. While I don't agree Druidry is compatible with just any system of beliefs, I will say that it can encompass Christianity quite fully. I'm not at all sure that I can agree with this. I'm not a druid and actually know very little about druidry. (what it has to do with ice cream I really have no clue about lol) But it seems to me either it is or it isn't a religion. If it is, then it's probably not very compatible with other religions. Most religions are pretty rigid. If it isn't a religion then it should be just as compatible with Hinduism as it is with Christianity. Yes Christianity did quite easily blend in and somewhat overtake the pagan Irish ways but that doesn't mean that any other religion would be less compatible really. |
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Post by Lady Anastasia on Mar 24, 2007 2:05:34 GMT -5
Firstly I feel a Druid can be "Christian" but not Muslim, Greek, Wiccan or anything else. The reason I feel this way is for one, the relatively simple conversion of the Irish people to Christianity. In fact "Celtic Christianity" never became what the Roman Catholic church meant for it to become to say the least. The Celtic Church is a being in-and-of it's self. It is a melding of Irish Paganism and Catholicism. After Christianity came to Ireland, the pagan ways didn't simply stop. The teachings and the feats of the poets or bards were now the teaching of the Filidh or sacred poets who recorded Irish ways using the bible to record them. IMO in order to understand the ways of the ancestors one needs to understand the ways of the Church in order to follow the "lineage" back to the destination. Also every Druidic lineage from Ireland to Gaul learned from other cultures they came into contact with, they were no opposed to using what was learned there to strengthen their own culture and practice, from Greece to Rome to the Norse, so it is difficult to label them as traditionalists when they were obviously building as they went. To me following the path of a Druid is a lifetime quest to further, expand, and evolve knowledge. Religion in-and-of it's self is at times looked upon as dogma and/or cast in stone. To a Druid stone is only one of at least nine ways of viewing such and their qualities of being. While I don't agree Druidry is compatible with just any system of beliefs, I will say that it can encompass Christianity quite fully. I have to disagree with you. I don't see how or why Christianity would be the only thing that could or should be combined with.. Take a moment to look at the similarities in thoughts and teachings with Buddhist/Taoist/etc beliefs.. They hold many of the same core beliefs and schools of thought... Religion or Philosophy? I don't know, call it what you will, lala hates putting a label to anything.. Labels are often times very limiting... And, why limit yourself? I will say, that to me, it is a way of life, Druidry/Druidism... it's not like a light switch that you can turn on and off at will... It's always present... But, hey, again, I'm lala, I'm probly wrong... lol I maintain the belief that Druidism was and is comparable to many of the indigenous beliefs that you will find in other cultures.. My thoughts and examples being drawn from the way that energy and balance are looked at... as well as the shamanic practices that are present... Working with animal power is a central feature of shamanism, and we can find many shamanic elements woven into the philosophy and practice of Druidry.
Michael Harner, a world authority on Shamanism speaks fo the shamanic way as one which is best defined as a method to open a door and enter a different reality.
Much Druid ceremony and meditation has as it's goal journeying into other realities, and the word "Druid" is related to words meaning both "Oak" and "Door"- With the symbol of the door or gateway being central in Druidic teaching.-The Druid Animal Oracle Now, not sure if I've even made sense on the matter, but, I've thrown in my thoughts on the matter.... As to what Druids and Icecream have to do with each other... The Answer is Everything.... lol |
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Post by tahlia on Mar 24, 2007 3:23:03 GMT -5
You'll have to explain the druid/ice cream correlation to me sometime.
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 24, 2007 4:02:53 GMT -5
I will say that I agree and disagree. Firstly I feel a Druid can be "Christian" but not Muslim, Greek, Wiccan or anything else. The reason I feel this way is for one, the relatively simple conversion of the Irish people to Christianity. In fact "Celtic Christianity" never became what the Roman Catholic church meant for it to become to say the least. The Celtic Church is a being in-and-of it's self. It is a melding of Irish Paganism and Catholicism. After Christianity came to Ireland, the pagan ways didn't simply stop. The teachings and the feats of the poets or bards were now the teaching of the Filidh or sacred poets who recorded Irish ways using the bible to record them. IMO in order to understand the ways of the ancestors one needs to understand the ways of the Church in order to follow the "lineage" back to the destination. Also every Druidic lineage from Ireland to Gaul learned from other cultures they came into contact with, they were no opposed to using what was learned there to strengthen their own culture and practice, from Greece to Rome to the Norse, so it is difficult to label them as traditionalists when they were obviously building as they went. To me following the path of a Druid is a lifetime quest to further, expand, and evolve knowledge. Religion in-and-of it's self is at times looked upon as dogma and/or cast in stone. To a Druid stone is only one of at least nine ways of viewing such and their qualities of being. While I don't agree Druidry is compatible with just any system of beliefs, I will say that it can encompass Christianity quite fully. I'm not at all sure that I can agree with this. I'm not a druid and actually know very little about druidry. (what it has to do with ice cream I really have no clue about lol) But it seems to me either it is or it isn't a religion. If it is, then it's probably not very compatible with other religions. Most religions are pretty rigid. If it isn't a religion then it should be just as compatible with Hinduism as it is with Christianity. Yes Christianity did quite easily blend in and somewhat overtake the pagan Irish ways but that doesn't mean that any other religion would be less compatible really. OK, fair enough response. The reason I feel Christianity is something special as far as Druidism is concerned is the fact that when the "Christian invasion" took Ireland it was the Celtic people who would shape the teachings of Christianity as given by Pádraig (some even give pagan roots to him though I seriously doubt it). In this transition the Bards of pagan Ireland pretty much just carried on as Filidh, some sources give the cast of Druids as carrying on as the priestly cast just as they had for centuries, only with their Christian over tone that we see today in the old Irish texts. This is why Christianity is compatible to me albeit "Celtic Christianity" with the reconstruction of Druidry. For if it had not been for the Celtic Church we would have little if anything to go on today. Other religions can't make that claim, or make that tie to the old ways of the Celtic people....I.e. Christianity is the only faith baring Celtic Paganism which is compatible with the Druids journey, for that is a journey of strict knowledge of tradition which a Muslim for example would not have claim to. |
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Post by tahlia on Mar 24, 2007 4:17:33 GMT -5
I'm not at all sure that I can agree with this. I'm not a druid and actually know very little about druidry. (what it has to do with ice cream I really have no clue about lol) But it seems to me either it is or it isn't a religion. If it is, then it's probably not very compatible with other religions. Most religions are pretty rigid. If it isn't a religion then it should be just as compatible with Hinduism as it is with Christianity. Yes Christianity did quite easily blend in and somewhat overtake the pagan Irish ways but that doesn't mean that any other religion would be less compatible really. OK, fair enough response. The reason I feel Christianity is something special as far as Druidism is concerned is the fact that when the "Christian invasion" took Ireland it was the Celtic people who would shape the teachings of Christianity as given by Pádraig (some even give pagan roots to him though I seriously doubt it). In this transition the Bards of pagan Ireland pretty much just carried on as Filidh, some sources give the cast of Druids as carrying on as the priestly cast just as they had for centuries, only with their Christian over tone that we see today in the old Irish texts. This is why Christianity is compatible to me albeit "Celtic Christianity" with the reconstruction of Druidry. For if it had not been for the Celtic Church we would have little if anything to go on today. Other religions can't make that claim, or make that tie to the old ways of the Celtic people....I.e. Christianity is the only faith baring Celtic Paganism which is compatible with the Druids journey, for that is a journey of strict knowledge of tradition which a Muslim for example would not have claim to. So just because the celts had a hand in shaping christianity and christianity helped preserve celtic beliefs, practices and traditions you think that makes christianity the only religion compatable with druidry? Did I follow that correctly? I think I must have missed something there. |
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 24, 2007 5:01:28 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you. I don't see how or why Christianity would be the only thing that could or should be combined with.. Take a moment to look at the similarities in thoughts and teachings with Buddhist/Taoist/etc beliefs.. They hold many of the same core beliefs and schools of thought... Figured you'd give me something to think about! Very nice response and you've raised several good points. Lets use the practices of the paths you've cited as an example for a second. Lets say that somehow through history Taoism had been lost to the people, assimilated by Buddhism and the easy conversion from Taoism to Buddhism. Due to this most of what had been known about Buddhism had been destroyed and lost. The only *real* path to take in understanding the original path is by tracing it through-out Buddhism, or at least the new hybrid form of Buddhism back to it's roots and beyond into a solid practice of the original. Then lets say a Christian or Muslim (for two off the wall examples) came and told you that for all the ties you have to the original path that they have as much right to claim Taoism as you do...What then? Firstly Lala this is a thread for thought and opinion, there is now wrong or right here, only thought and opinion, and you are just as welcome to yours as anyone else. Now, that said "Religion or Philosophy?"....Hmmm, I would say that it is both and neither, IMHO there's nothing wrong with a label so much until it is used to categorize that which can't be categorized. As Marcus pointed out Druids were the priestly/spiritual leaders of the tribes of Celtic countries. While simple elements of other cultures were at times integrated into Druidic practice and philosophy they were indeed Celts, which is one reason I think I should correct myself for saying they weren't traditionalists...I think the word I had on my mind at the time was "reconstructionist". Whoops No they were definitely traditionalists, as any serious look at the texts would show. Sorry for the confusion Marcus! Bare in mind here that in a Druid's training there were two classes of student. These would have been Poet and Shaman. Oh, I agree. Through out most of the old text you can find many many examples to Shamanic practice in both Celtic society and Druidic practice. Druidism is a very Shamanic practice. If you study "Derg" in the story of Fionn and the Fianna for example you can see how he shares all things with his Stag, raven (or was it crow?), and trout totems. The apple he ate, the nuts of wisdom. This is how a Druid see's his totems as well, they are manifestations of land, sea, and sky and we share back and fourth the fruits of what make us what and who we are. Indeed a core philosophy for the Druid Shaman IMO. [/i] -The Druid Animal Oracle[/quote] In my understanding it is the term "Draoi" which means a magical doorway, though you are exactly right on the origins of the word "Druid". The Druid not only learns to travel to new realities, they also learn to create them. Between land, sea, and sky there are a myriad of worlds and realities. The truth of such things will depend on how the Druid or Shaman view their own truths in being and their connection to spirit as well as place. I really like so far what you've told me about your new book Lala, as I have said the Druid animal oracle has come highly recommended by many Druid groves...I just haven't had a chance to see it yet . |
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 24, 2007 5:06:55 GMT -5
You'll have to explain the druid/ice cream correlation to me sometime. LoL, it is a joke her and Wren have going on...Evidently the answer is Hazel nuts. |
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 24, 2007 5:16:19 GMT -5
OK, fair enough response. The reason I feel Christianity is something special as far as Druidism is concerned is the fact that when the "Christian invasion" took Ireland it was the Celtic people who would shape the teachings of Christianity as given by Pádraig (some even give pagan roots to him though I seriously doubt it). In this transition the Bards of pagan Ireland pretty much just carried on as Filidh, some sources give the cast of Druids as carrying on as the priestly cast just as they had for centuries, only with their Christian over tone that we see today in the old Irish texts. This is why Christianity is compatible to me albeit "Celtic Christianity" with the reconstruction of Druidry. For if it had not been for the Celtic Church we would have little if anything to go on today. Other religions can't make that claim, or make that tie to the old ways of the Celtic people....I.e. Christianity is the only faith baring Celtic Paganism which is compatible with the Druids journey, for that is a journey of strict knowledge of tradition which a Muslim for example would not have claim to. So just because the celts had a hand in shaping christianity and christianity helped preserve celtic beliefs, practices and traditions you think that makes christianity the only religion compatable with druidry? Did I follow that correctly? I think I must have missed something there. No, you haven't missed anything except that the two became one separate religion, which many now call Celtic Christianity. A new breed of Christianity granted, but there are so many breeds out there. Actually your statement of "just because" seems a bit light in that if it hadn't been for that single tie to the ancestors and tradition all would have been lost save for archaeological evidence, which wouldn't paint much of a picture at all. The Filidh of the Celtic Church were Christian pagans and these Christian Pagans have the ONLY ties to the old ways, and the knowledge of the lineage. |
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Post by tahlia on Mar 24, 2007 6:12:19 GMT -5
So just because the celts had a hand in shaping christianity and christianity helped preserve celtic beliefs, practices and traditions you think that makes christianity the only religion compatable with druidry? Did I follow that correctly? I think I must have missed something there. No, you haven't missed anything except that the two became one separate religion, which many now call Celtic Christianity. A new breed of Christianity granted, but there are so many breeds out there. Actually your statement of "just because" seems a bit light in that if it hadn't been for that single tie to the ancestors and tradition all would have been lost save for archaeological evidence, which wouldn't paint much of a picture at all. The Filidh of the Celtic Church were Christian pagans and these Christian Pagans have the ONLY ties to the old ways, and the knowledge of the lineage. No I certainly wasn't trying to make light of it. It seems to me that what you are saying though is because christianity is the only religion that has proved itself capable of meshing with celtic spirituality/philosophy (and thankfully documented all the beliefs and traditions that it tried so hard to irradicate) that it is the only religion that has the right to do so. That is what I felt I might be misunderstanding. If that is what you are saying, then I'm really not following your logic. You obviously know much more about this than I do and I'm not trying to be difficult. It seems to me though that if it can mesh with something as (dare I say it?) closed-minded, and literally carved in stone, as christianity that there must be many other religions that it could just as easily incorporate. Or be incorporated by as the case may be. Thank you both for helping to clear up my confusion about the druid/ice cream issue. Y'all are a little goofy but I think I like it. lol |
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Post by Senbecc on Mar 24, 2007 8:39:41 GMT -5
No, you haven't missed anything except that the two became one separate religion, which many now call Celtic Christianity. A new breed of Christianity granted, but there are so many breeds out there. Actually your statement of "just because" seems a bit light in that if it hadn't been for that single tie to the ancestors and tradition all would have been lost save for archaeological evidence, which wouldn't paint much of a picture at all. The Filidh of the Celtic Church were Christian pagans and these Christian Pagans have the ONLY ties to the old ways, and the knowledge of the lineage. No I certainly wasn't trying to make light of it. It seems to me that what you are saying though is because christianity is the only religion that has proved itself capable of meshing with celtic spirituality/philosophy (and thankfully documented all the beliefs and traditions that it tried so hard to irradicate) that it is the only religion that has the right to do so. That is what I felt I might be misunderstanding. If that is what you are saying, then I'm really not following your logic. You obviously know much more about this than I do and I'm not trying to be difficult. It seems to me though that if it can mesh with something as (dare I say it?) closed-minded, and literally carved in stone, as christianity that there must be many other religions that it could just as easily incorporate. Or be incorporated by as the case may be. Thank you both for helping to clear up my confusion about the druid/ice cream issue. Y'all are a little goofy but I think I like it. lol OK, I'm obviously not saying this as well as I thought I was. Firstly bare in mind that the class of Christianity isn't the run of the mill types you get at your door step here in the west. Secondly, it should be remembered that I am with Marcus to a point on Druidry, and it's teachings being strictly Celtic teachings, I do not see Pagan Druidry or Christian Druidry as eclectic. The reason Celtic Christianity melds with Druidism IMO is because of it's Celtic ties and ties to tradition and Pagan Ways of Ireland (Ireland being my example as that is where my own studies are). The Celtic lineages span far before Ireland, they go to Celtic Spain, Gaul, Britain, etc. even Turkey, all over Europe, traditions and practices differed, evolved and changed but were always Celtic. I see Celtic Christianity as a part of this evolution. Bards and Druids didn't cease to be, they simply changed form, but just as they had been for generations they were still Celtic, and of Celtic lineage. The Filidh knew this to be true which is why they stayed so close to the teachings of the pre-christian Bards and Druids. Celtic Christianity is a part of our lineage. Druidry is a strictly Celtic path, I personally am a strictly Pagan Druid traditionalist and reconstructionist, I simply have no trouble seeing the line between Bard and Filidh. Now bare in mind also that it was more Pádraig who did most of the burning and eradicating with *some* backing I'm sure, however after this the Celtic Church worked to record the genealogies from memory, oral traditions, and probably some previous writings. Under brehon law such things were kept as they were the only changes being made usually was a biblical dating and biblical references to Pagan ways. Then the Norse came, but that's another story for another day.  |
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