god or the girl

[KittyLane]

this is a new series on A&E called "god or the girl"
www.aetv.com/godorthegirl/


i think its nuts- to a point. what these guys are going through.

[moonwind333]

evilkitty12582 said:

this is a new series on A&E called "god or the girl"
www.aetv.com/godorthegirl/


i think its nuts- to a point. what these guys are going through.

We saw the ads on it and my first thought was ... if the Catholic church wants to continue getting priests, they are going to have to make some changes! The early church didn't have rules about celebacy, that came much later.

[flowerfaeryqueen]

yeah, i see the point, moonwind. many catholic priests at my church have dropped out, because they fell in love. they seirously do need change.

[moonwind333]

flowerfaeryqueen said:

yeah, i see the point, moonwind. many catholic priests at my church have dropped out, because they fell in love. they seirously do need change.

I think the Catholic church would see a great upsurge of people if they did join the 21st century. But change has to come from the top and that won't be happening any time soon. When it does (and it will have to, IMO) it will be interesting to see what happens to the church.

[KittyLane]

moonwind333 said:

evilkitty12582 said:

this is a new series on A&E called "god or the girl"
www.aetv.com/godorthegirl/


i think its nuts- to a point. what these guys are going through.

We saw the ads on it and my first thought was ... if the Catholic church wants to continue getting priests, they are going to have to make some changes! The early church didn't have rules about celebacy, that came much later.

really i had no clue that the celebacy was added later, i assumed it was a "always" thing. no wonder they are the way they are................................

[moonwind333]

evilkitty12582 said:

moonwind333 said:

We saw the ads on it and my first thought was ... if the Catholic church wants to continue getting priests, they are going to have to make some changes! The early church didn't have rules about celebacy, that came much later.

really i had no clue that the celebacy was added later, i assumed it was a "always" thing. no wonder they are the way they are................................

This should interest you then! (Check out the "Popes who were the sons of other popes, other clergy" part!)

A Brief History of Celibacy in the
Catholic Church
First Century
Peter, the first pope, and the apostles that Jesus chose were, for the most part, married men. The New Testament implies that women presided at eucharistic meals in the early church.

Second and Third Century
Age of Gnosticism: light and spirit are good, darkness and material things are evil. A person cannot be married and be perfect. However, most priests were married.

Fourth Century
306-Council of Elvira, Spain, decree #43: a priest who sleeps with his wife the night before Mass will lose his job.
325-Council of Nicea: decreed that after ordination a priest could not marry. Proclaimed the Nicene Creed.
352-Council of Laodicea: women are not to be ordained. This suggests that before this time there was ordination of women.
385-Pope Siricius left his wife in order to become pope. Decreed that priests may no longer sleep with their wives.

Fifth Century
401-St. Augustine wrote, “Nothing is so powerful in drawing the spirit of a man downwards as the caresses of a woman.”

Sixth Century
567-2nd Council of Tours: any cleric found in bed with his wife would be excommunicated for a year and reduced to the lay state.
580-Pope Pelagius II: his policy was not to bother married priests as long as they did not hand over church property to wives or children.
590-604-Pope Gregory “the Great” said that all sexual desire is sinful in itself (meaning that sexual desire is intrinsically evil?).

Seventh Century
France: documents show that the majority of priest were married.

Eighth Century
St. Boniface reported to the pope that in Germany almost no bishop or priest was celibate.

Ninth Century
836-Council of Aix-la-Chapelle openly admitted that abortions and infanticide took place in convents and monasteries to cover up activities of uncelibate clerics.
St. Ulrich, a holy bishop, argued from scripture and common sense that the only way to purify the church from the worst excesses of celibacy was to permit priests to marry.

Eleventh Century
1045-Pope Boniface IX dispensed himself from celibacy and resigned in order to marry.
1074-Pope Gregory VII said anyone to be ordained must first pledge celibacy: ‘priests [must] first escape from the clutches of their wives.’
1095-Pope Urban II had priests’ wives sold into slavery, children were abandoned.

Twelfth Century
1123-Pope Calistus II: First Lateran Council decreed that clerical marriages were invalid.
1139-Pope Innocent II: Second Lateran Council confirmed the previous council’s decree.

Fourteenth Century
Bishop Pelagio complains that women are still ordained and hearing confessions.

Fifteenth Century
Transition; 50% of priests are married and accepted by the people.

Sixteenth Century
1545-63-Council of Trent states that celibacy and virginity are superior to marriage.
1517-Martin Luther.
1530-Henry VIII.

Seventeenth Century
Inquisition. Galileo. Newton.

Eighteenth Century
1776-American Declaration of Independence.
1789-French Revolution.

Nineteenth Century
1804-Napoleon.
1882-Darwin.
1847-Marx, Communist Manifesto.
1858-Freud.
1869-First Vatican Council; infallibility of pope.

Twentieth Century
1930-Pope Pius XI: sex can be good and holy.
1951-Pope Pius XII: married Lutheran pastor ordained catholic priest in Germany.
1962-Pope John XXIII: Vatican Council II; vernacular; marriage is equal to virginity.
1966-Pope Paul VI: celibacy dispensations.
1970s-Ludmilla Javorova and several other Czech women ordained to serve needs of women imprisoned by Communists.
1978-Pope John Paul II: puts a freeze on dispensations.
1983-New Canon Law.
1980-Married Anglican/Episcopal pastors are ordained as catholic priests in the U.S.; also in Canada and England in 1994.



Popes who were married
St. Peter, Apostle
St. Felix III 483-492 (2 children)
St. Hormidas 514-523 (1 son)
St. Silverus (Antonia) 536-537
Hadrian II 867-872 (1 daughter)
Clement IV 1265-1268 (2 daughters)
Felix V 1439-1449 (1 son)



Popes who were the sons of other popes, other clergy
Name of Pope Papacy Son of
St. Damascus I 366-348 St. Lorenzo, priest
St. Innocent I 401-417 Anastasius I
Boniface 418-422 son of a priest
St. Felix 483-492 son of a priest
Anastasius II 496-498 son of a priest
St. Agapitus I 535-536
Gordiaous, priest
St. Silverus 536-537 St. Homidas, pope
Deusdedit 882-884 son of a priest
Boniface VI 896-896 Hadrian, bishop
John XI 931-935 Pope Sergius III
John XV 989-996 Leo, priest



Popes who had illegitimate children after 1139
Innocent VIII 1484-1492 several children
Alexander VI 1492-1503 several children
Julius 1503-1513 3 daughters
Paul III 1534-1549 3 sons, 1 daughter
Pius IV 1559-1565 3 sons
Gregory XIII 1572-1585 1 son



History sources:
Oxford Dictionary of Popes; H.C. Lea History of Sacerdotal Celibacy in the Christian Church 1957; E. Schillebeeckx The Church with a Human Face 1985; J. McSorley Outline History of the Church by Centuries 1957; F.A.Foy (Ed.) 1990 Catholic Almanac 1989; D.L. Carmody The Double Cross - Ordination, Abortion and Catholic Feminism 1986; P.K. Jewtt The Ordination of Women 1980; A.F. Ide God's Girls - Ordination of Women in the Early Christian & Gnostic Churches 1986; E. Schüssler Fiorenza In Memory of Her 1984; P. DeRosa Vicars of Christ 1988.

www.futurechurch.org/fpm/history.htm

[excatholic]

There is power in celebacy that I am afraid the church has lost. Anyway, I think we will see the church begin to split, in that many parts of it will become much more liberal (as if vatacan II wasnt enough!) and some parts will be become much more conservitive - and may even go back to pre-vatacan II, as some already have. I think the church will have to make this split in order to remain effective - however, it would probably be in its best interest in the long run to remain havily conservative - but I think their greed for influence will keep them from this route.

[moonwind333]

excatholic said:

There is power in celebacy that I am afraid the church has lost. Anyway, I think we will see the church begin to split, in that many parts of it will become much more liberal (as if vatacan II wasnt enough!) and some parts will be become much more conservitive - and may even go back to pre-vatacan II, as some already have. I think the church will have to make this split in order to remain effective - however, it would probably be in its best interest in the long run to remain havily conservative - but I think their greed for influence will keep them from this route.

You may be right, there. It is very hard to give up power once you have had it. But the church is loosing that power anyway as more and more people become more educated. Look at where the church is the strongest and where it has less of a hold. You may be right about a split, but then the question will be (as it has been in the past at other splits) which is the REAL church. (Though maybe that might be the best thing that could happen!)

[Sojrn]

excatholic said:

There is power in celebacy that I am afraid the church has lost. Anyway, I think we will see the church begin to split, in that many parts of it will become much more liberal (as if vatacan II wasnt enough!) and some parts will be become much more conservitive - and may even go back to pre-vatacan II, as some already have. I think the church will have to make this split in order to remain effective - however, it would probably be in its best interest in the long run to remain havily conservative - but I think their greed for influence will keep them from this route.

Sex, being a deep-rooted human drive causes too much turmoil when it's denied, turmoil that the church does not need, especially when there is a shortage of young men entering the priesthood.

[Senbecc]

excatholic said:

There is power in celebacy that I am afraid the church has lost. Anyway, I think we will see the church begin to split, in that many parts of it will become much more liberal (as if vatacan II wasnt enough!) and some parts will be become much more conservitive - and may even go back to pre-vatacan II, as some already have. I think the church will have to make this split in order to remain effective - however, it would probably be in its best interest in the long run to remain havily conservative - but I think their greed for influence will keep them from this route.

This may be true to a point. I suppose one could summon energies from within themselves this way. However there are people now (as I believe you were touching upon) who can't really stomach it as they should. From the sickness of spirit it causes we get priests, and other such people who are trusted by parent and child alike..... and then abuse this trust...To say the least.

Like you I feel they should pursue an alternative view point.

[KittyLane]

sojrn said:

excatholic said:

There is power in celebacy that I am afraid the church has lost. Anyway, I think we will see the church begin to split, in that many parts of it will become much more liberal (as if vatacan II wasnt enough!) and some parts will be become much more conservitive - and may even go back to pre-vatacan II, as some already have. I think the church will have to make this split in order to remain effective - however, it would probably be in its best interest in the long run to remain havily conservative - but I think their greed for influence will keep them from this route.

i think its almost "wrong" to deny your natural insticts. we were made to have sex. and given the ability to enjoy it to the fullest!

Sex, being a deep-rooted human drive causes too much turmoil when it's denied, turmoil that the church does not need, especially when there is a shortage of young men entering the priesthood.

thats why i would have not made a good NUN, to much physical pleasure.

[Pel]

There are a lot of passages in the Bible talking about priests having wives. Speficially Leviticus 21, I believe, that says a priest should take a wife in her virginity. I think priests should be able to have wives. A friend of mine and I were talking about it recently and he believes the church'll change soon.

[flowerfaeryqueen]

i think the church will have to review its celibacy policy, or there wont be any priests or nuns left.

[KittyLane]

pel said:

There are a lot of passages in the Bible talking about priests having wives. Speficially Leviticus 21, I believe, that says a priest should take a wife in her virginity. I think priests should be able to have wives. A friend of mine and I were talking about it recently and he believes the church'll change soon.

do you really think it will change?

[Sojrn]

evilkitty12582 said:

do you really think it will change?

That's the $64,000 dollar question!