|
Post by wren on Jun 30, 2006 13:24:47 GMT -5
Wren asked if I would find it offensive for her to use native American gods in her practice. Personally no but I met some first peoples in British Columbia who were offended beond words that people would take their land and then try and steal their Gods. When I am in BC I honour them with sacrifice and aknowlege that this is their territory and I am a greatfull guest, I wouldnt call on them for anything though. Then again I dont live there if you have a tie to the land it might be ok Actually, what I asked was if you believed it was equally offensive that we honor the spirits of the land I inhabit, not if we 'use them'. I do not ask them for anything but I do acknowledge their presence and offer a gift based on the beliefs of those who once lived here. I have been in touch with the remaining descendents of the People who lived here and asked the appropriate form of honor and acknowledging the ancestors and spirits of this land, and why I was asking, and they have been most helpful and kind with their generous responses. I would have my children acknowledge they were not here first and should remember those who were. You wrote..." Gaelic gods are tied to parts of the land in Ireland"... are you not the one limiting their power and intentions with such a statement? Should you not have at the very least offered them Scotland, Wales and parts of Britain? Are you truly saying that a Greek God would be offended by a person of Irish descent acknowledging and honoring him in ritual? Is it only Wiccan practices that offend you in this regard? I am not of Welsh ancestry but am attending rituals at an ADF Druid Grove near my home. Am I then offending the Welsh Gods, along with all the members who are also not Welsh? Why is your outrage only limited to Celtic Wiccans in this regard, may I respectfully ask?
|
|
|
Post by stormcat on Jun 30, 2006 22:15:53 GMT -5
Being 1/4 Irish,( mine escaped the famine and came over in the 1800's to be farmers) I was wondering if you considered this to be an infringement on your national heritage, you know others claiming Gaelic Gods and traditions. Cause I bet 1/2 of the USA can claim Irish ancestry. You would do well to think of how many of OUR people immigrated to find religious freedom in our USA. It usually follows that religion travels with its people.>^..^<
|
|
|
Post by flowerfaeryqueen on Jul 1, 2006 14:12:56 GMT -5
I dont think, ardri, you should "claim" your gods, and say it is wrong for others to worship them. like some of you guys said,i dont think the gods really mind if whoever chooses to worship them is not what ever nationality they originate from. people should be free to worship the gods that seems to call them. even though it is good to be proud of your nationality, dont let it control you, or judge others on whatever part of this beautiful planet they were born on.
|
|
|
Post by flowerfaeryqueen on Jul 1, 2006 14:15:17 GMT -5
eh yes I would, because I havent said anything derogatory I have stated a fact and shared a grievance in a part of the site set aside for rants yes, but i dont believe it was set aside for people to flame and insult others beliefs. i was under the impression we were an open minded peoples here, and your 'fact' was an insult. we all have our own beliefs, learn to accept it. wooo you go, ihrian. i agree, this is not a board for flaming. if you want to insult others,go find some other forum. no offence meant, ardri.
|
|
|
Post by ardri79 on Jul 1, 2006 15:07:48 GMT -5
ok as much as what I have seen here has earned my respect I have to mention that NONE of you has bothered to adress my question about WICCANS using the gods of my native culture as archetypes which says to em that either A. you dont know what archetypes are or B. that you were oath bound to the most simplistic of aspects of the wiccan faith.
That or you have so little self control that you didnt read my post through in which case I dont feel that you understand what the slow death of my native culture can mean to me or understand what part using a cultures native gods plays in a cultures destruction.
honour is something earned in our culture and any offense I gave could easily be apologised for if someone would earn honour in my eyes and intelligently and honestly answer my question.
until then i dont feel any need tol apologise as this is in the section set aside for rants.
Sorry Senbec but they might aswell meet honour driven people like me here then spend their whole lives with faux hippie morals only to reach high status and have their modern misconceptions crushed
|
|
|
Post by Marcus on Jul 1, 2006 16:10:17 GMT -5
Hehe i new you would bring up this debate James!! Tis a great topic for discussion in my opinion. But i think the discussion about nationality can be easily answered. James (ardri79) said: For the most part i believe this is very true! It is Ireland that the Irish gods roamed and it is in Ireland that the Irish gods touched the blood of men. People have then raised the arguement that they live far of in America yet they feel the gods call. I know that most people here that are living and born in America have Irish ancestors. You feel the call of the gods because of your Irish heritage. Anyway that is just my view on that. I would like to see this thread turn into a great discussion as it certainly has the potential to do so. Please stop wioth the "wooo! you go girl!" posts lol . It makes it seem that people are ganging up on people.
|
|
|
Post by stormcat on Jul 1, 2006 18:44:34 GMT -5
Archetype; Original model/pattern. Definition Webster's Dictionary. Answer my question, do I have the right to worship the Ancestors of my forefathers. Is my Irishness to diluted? My people were/are the Donnevan's from county Cork. I can name 7 generations of my family here. You sir, insult the very culture you bemoan the death and destruction of. I do not see myself as a"Faux hippie." Nor to I attempt to reach "high status," through exploitation of any Deity. If a culture cannot grow and adapt it will die. I would be interested in just who can reach the lofty bar you have set. By the By you need not expect an old cat like me to want or need an apology, I'm made of tougher stuff.>^..^<
|
|
|
Post by Senbecc on Jul 1, 2006 21:39:22 GMT -5
ok as much as what I have seen here has earned my respect I have to mention that NONE of you has bothered to adress my question about WICCANS using the gods of my native culture as archetypes which says to em that either A. you dont know what archetypes are or B. that you were oath bound to the most simplistic of aspects of the wiccan faith. That or you have so little self control that you didnt read my post through in which case I dont feel that you understand what the slow death of my native culture can mean to me or understand what part using a cultures native gods plays in a cultures destruction. honour is something earned in our culture and any offense I gave could easily be apologised for if someone would earn honour in my eyes and intelligently and honestly answer my question. until then i dont feel any need tol apologise as this is in the section set aside for rants. Sorry Senbec but they might aswell meet honour driven people like me here then spend their whole lives with faux hippie morals only to reach high status and have their modern misconceptions crushed No one is asking for an apology, just be curteous...Everyone...Please? I'm not sure anyone here is actually trying to debate whether or not the Irish gods are Irish, or that they're tied to Ireland. Of course they're tied to Ireland. As for slow death of Irish culture, it seems to me to be growing. I don't know if you realized it, but I began as an initiated Faery Wiccan myself. To me the Gods of Irish ancestery were exactly that, and yes I felt (at the time though my views have changed over the years) that the gods were aspects of a male and female duality as are all male and female aspects of evey species, if one follows a Wiccan philosophy, then why would the gods be any different? Hehe i new you would bring up this debate James!! Tis a great topic for discussion in my opinion. But i think the discussion about nationality can be easily answered. James (ardri79) said: For the most part i believe this is very true! It is Ireland that the Irish gods roamed and it is in Ireland that the Irish gods touched the blood of men. People have then raised the arguement that they live far of in America yet they feel the gods call. I know that most people here that are living and born in America have Irish ancestors. You feel the call of the gods because of your Irish heritage. Anyway that is just my view on that. I would like to see this thread turn into a great discussion as it certainly has the potential to do so. Please stop wioth the "wooo! you go girl!" posts lol . It makes it seem that people are ganging up on people. C'mon now guys, like I said. No-one has made the claim that the Irish gods aren't tied to Ireland. I think one finds the gods through not only bloodlines, and the spirit of place, but also by living the Irish way of life, living by all the virtues as given by the gods. While I agree with some of what has been said, this thread just seems dangarously close to another and I seriously run the risk of becomming very hipacritical here. Anyway, my original question was, "How is honoring, and rememberance of the gods in any form disrespectful?"
|
|
|
Post by flowerfaeryqueen on Jul 2, 2006 3:31:18 GMT -5
exactly, senbecc. i dont think it is disrespectful to honour the irish gods, and if anything, the whole culture is getting bigger and surely the gods themselves dont mind whoever worships them as long as they are respectful.
|
|
|
Post by stormcat on Jul 2, 2006 8:22:52 GMT -5
I'm not attempting a repeat of a similar but unrelated thread. However---To tie deities to a certain land and culture, and then say they belong to one land or one people is...well offensive. As I stated before religions tend to go with its people. The Gods are the ones who choose you, as much as a cultural desire to honor them. I have a rock from the Black Hills, considered a very sacred place by Native Americans. Is this rock a rock or a cultural artifact?I guess it depends on your view. So put back your club Senbecc, I've gotten a grip, well as long as nothing offensive is said. ;D>^..^<
|
|
|
Post by Senbecc on Jul 2, 2006 8:50:33 GMT -5
I'm not attempting a repeat of a similar but unrelated thread. However---To tie deities to a certain land and culture, and then say they belong to one land or one people is...well offensive. As I stated before religions tend to go with its people. The Gods are the ones who choose you, as much as a cultural desire to honor them. I have a rock from the Black Hills, considered a very sacred place by Native Americans. Is this rock a rock or a cultural artifact?I guess it depends on your view. So put back your club Senbecc, I've gotten a grip, well as long as nothing offensive is said. ;D>^..^< Not to worry Stormcat, your the last person I'd ever think of clubbing. No, I agree with both sides to a point, and no I don't feel that Wiccan philosophies are in any way disrespectful to the Gods of Irish culture. By the same token, while I don't at all feel that the gods are limited to a single physical land, I do however feel that they are the gods of the Celtic peoples. While the names may change as do the roles they play at times, I do feel that they are the Celtic gods, and I must say also that I do feel that one earns the right to not only "worship" (or perhaps respect might be a more accurate term?) the Irish "Gods" but also to call themselves a Celt to begin with, which is what I *think* Ardri may be trying to get at? As stated by Amergin the White Knee in the Cauldron of Poesy anyone can "venture from ignorance". IMO the Faery and Celtic wiccans have simply found a new means by which they stir the 3 Cauldrons of the self. As was stated before by another poster the Celtic people came from many different locations. The Irish aren't the only Celtic culture that needs to be remembered in this particular discussion. The Celtic people lived in many lands, and had many cultures, yet the similarities in their gods shouldn't be denied, as IMO that is one of the keys to understanding any of the Celtic races, as well as their gods, nor did these Celtic cultures share the exact same philosophies by which they honored them.
|
|
|
Post by raeven on Jul 2, 2006 13:55:23 GMT -5
Those are some good points. BUT as a Wiccan you feel Gods call to you? You mean those would be the Archetypes that resound most loudly within your own psyche and would be easiest for you to use in Ritual. In my opinion that does not count as a God showing an interest in you. Raeven you said natiionality means nothing to them? where did you meet the Gaelic Gods, far be it from me to limit the power of a God but in my experiance the Gods are tied to parts of the land in Ireland and as they are our Gods we are their people we draw their interest because of that. Its NOT that they are mine first its that Wicca (not witch craft) does not worship them as gods but as archetypes to aid in Ritual... Why use my gods as Archetypes thats the question i wanted an answer for. Wren asked if I would find it offensive for her to use native American gods in her practice. Personally no but I met some first peoples in British Columbia who were offended beond words that people would take their land and then try and steal their Gods. When I am in BC I honour them with sacrifice and aknowlege that this is their territory and I am a greatfull guest, I wouldnt call on them for anything though. Then again I dont live there if you have a tie to the land it might be ok I am not Wiccan and quite frankly what I am is none of your business. I am not into "Gaelic Gods" or nationalities or traditional witchcraft. Second of all logic tells me this. That all over the world there are Gods with different names and yet they all have the exact same purpose just different names. Exactly how do you know that they have a tie to the land? Did your invisible God in the sky come down and tell you that? Was there some big meeting you had with the Gaelic Gods where they informed you personally or someone close to you that they were offended because people in another country loved them? Oh the horror and the shame and anger they must feel that someone who doesnt live a mile or two from them has decided to revere them and dedicated their lives to them. How dare they be so audacious!
|
|
|
Post by raeven on Jul 2, 2006 14:17:50 GMT -5
Hehe i new you would bring up this debate James!! Tis a great topic for discussion in my opinion. But i think the discussion about nationality can be easily answered. James (ardri79) said: For the most part i believe this is very true! It is Ireland that the Irish gods roamed and it is in Ireland that the Irish gods touched the blood of men. People have then raised the arguement that they live far of in America yet they feel the gods call. I know that most people here that are living and born in America have Irish ancestors. You feel the call of the gods because of your Irish heritage. Anyway that is just my view on that. I would like to see this thread turn into a great discussion as it certainly has the potential to do so. Please stop wioth the "wooo! you go girl!" posts lol . It makes it seem that people are ganging up on people. You are a very well spoken young gentleman. And you are so right.. a majority of Americans are Irish descent, people who came here during the potatoe famine for the land rushes and who brought their belief's with them. And these beliefs have been passed down for the majority as old wives tales or folk remedy. I believe it is because of the familiarity of it alot of Wiccans have chosen the Gaelic side. Just as Gaelics in Ireland have been taught to be proud of their roots so have the people here. I have to say that the utter arrogance and snobbery of this thread makes me just as sick as the fundalmentalist christians i have here in the bible belt that are trying to save my soul on a daily basis. (not by you) Its bad enough that we are having to fight for our rights as pagans amongst people who tried to wipe our religion off the face fo the earth.. but the petty quibbling and in fighting about who can worship whom just blows me away. Which is exactly why I shun any type of organized religion.. witchcraft/wicca/whatever.. if you look back in just about every major atrocity commited in the last few hundred years was done in the name of religion... by people judging others for how they worshipped. Why he cares about how joe bob billie jack burns his fire and to whom he burns it for I have absolutely no idea other then someone needs a good hobby.
|
|
|
Post by stormcat on Jul 2, 2006 20:46:07 GMT -5
Couldn't agree with you more Raeven. This is why I'm An Eclectic Solitary. I may be considered a "cop" out, no one can say what I do is wrong. I don't even lean toward the Gaelic Deities. My dander was up yesterday though. The unmitigated Gall of the posts fired me up. I always try to remember almost everyone is younger then me, and full of youthful rashness. It just seemed...arrogant.>^..^<
|
|
|
Post by ardri79 on Jul 3, 2006 2:26:54 GMT -5
look ye obviously dont get it I view the American (north too) attachment to bloodlines nazish It would give you very little claim to being irish.
I agree that being irish is being part of the culture.
but bar one dictionary definition none of ye seem to know what an Archetype is or what part they play in wicca or why I wouldnt view that as worshipping a god.
Im going to take the time to answer everyones questions and angered replies but after that unless someone can explain why Wiccans steal gods from cultures they dont belong to and to use as Archetypes Im not replying because all Im doing is feeding directionless anger
|
|