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Post by ardri79 on Jun 27, 2006 7:18:42 GMT -5
Now the crux of what separates wicca from traditional paganism is their adaptation of jungian archatypes.
In my opinion to decide the ancient gods of my people are all elements of your subconcious is insane.
The current "trend" in Celtic Wicca has seen the gods of my culture whose worship has been preserved over centuries despite attempted genocide 9 famines religious oppression and censorship and the banning of all aspects of gaelic culture adopted by people who dont believe in gods and that belief is touted as "Celtic"
Disrespectfull to everyone who fought to preserve our culture hugely disrespectfull to the Gods themselves and makes a celtic wiccan about as celtic as a brit on paddies day.
I figure this is thepalce for the celtic wiccans to come out and tell me why WHY?
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Post by Wolf on Jun 27, 2006 7:54:32 GMT -5
I have a friend who finds your posts on celtic wiccans offensive. Would you mind toning it down a little?
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Post by ardri79 on Jun 27, 2006 10:15:10 GMT -5
eh yes I would, because I havent said anything derogatory
I have stated a fact and shared a grievance in a part of the site set aside for rants, it is a grievance you will find with every traditionalist from every country in the world.
nothing is stopping celtic wiccans from harvesting my native culture without making any apology. In a site is full of fairly educated people who could answer the question I see no reason why I should change my post and be made to beg for an answer.
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Post by wren on Jun 27, 2006 13:21:13 GMT -5
Would you consider it, then, equally offensive to those who once inhabited this land where I live (native americans) that my daughter and I honor them as ancestors of the land and pay tribute to them during our rituals? I do not consider myself wiccan, though I've studied wiccan ritual as part of my path. I am Scottish by ancestry, along with English and French, American citizen from birth. Are you saying i must limit myself to only Scottish, English and French deities?
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Post by raeven on Jun 28, 2006 0:33:47 GMT -5
Now the crux of what separates wicca from traditional paganism is their adaptation of jungian archatypes. In my opinion to decide the ancient gods of my people are all elements of your subconcious is insane. The current "trend" in Celtic Wicca has seen the gods of my culture whose worship has been preserved over centuries despite attempted genocide 9 famines religious oppression and censorship and the banning of all aspects of gaelic culture adopted by people who dont believe in gods and that belief is touted as "Celtic" Disrespectfull to everyone who fought to preserve our culture hugely disrespectfull to the Gods themselves and makes a celtic wiccan about as celtic as a brit on paddies day. I figure this is thepalce for the celtic wiccans to come out and tell me why WHY? I am not a Celtic Wiccan however I can answer your question with question.. who is a human made of flesh and bone to question who the gods call to their service? Nationality means nothing to them.. skin color, eye color etc it all means nothing. And its quite racist to even suggest that it does. If "traditionalists" get so offended then maybe they should go back to the begining and begin learning their roots again. Celtic peoples are a mix of picts, norwegion, roman, scandanavien, french, spanish.. the list goes on and on. Should we say that the "celts" who are not anymore pure then a american witch would offend the Gods by worshipping them if they are not of pure race? I dare say they are not of pure heart if they guard the gods so jeolously. I would have to say to those "traditionalists" that they do indeed need to go back to square one as well as learn how to treat their brothers and sisters .. you would think they would have better things to do with their time then point fingers and say "But mooommm .. he took my god away from me.. it was mine firstttttt" pffftttttt thats what i have to say.
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Post by Wolf on Jun 28, 2006 1:03:32 GMT -5
Oooohh nice one!
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sophie
Seeker
if your happy and you know it....clap your hands.
Posts: 27
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Post by sophie on Jun 28, 2006 2:58:16 GMT -5
woo go Raeven!
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Post by ihrian on Jun 28, 2006 4:53:42 GMT -5
eh yes I would, because I havent said anything derogatory I have stated a fact and shared a grievance in a part of the site set aside for rants yes, but i dont believe it was set aside for people to flame and insult others beliefs. i was under the impression we were an open minded peoples here, and your 'fact' was an insult. we all have our own beliefs, learn to accept it.
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Post by Wolf on Jun 28, 2006 5:10:20 GMT -5
Ooohh go Ihrian!
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Post by ihrian on Jun 28, 2006 5:47:44 GMT -5
ardri, didnt mean to try and gang up on you, but i just didnt appreciate it. we are all entitled to our own oppinions and if u want to think that celtic wiccans dont keep the old ways/traditions, fine, but i for one dont want to hear about it. i honestly dont see the problem
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Post by raeven on Jun 28, 2006 7:18:19 GMT -5
I have run into many "traditionalists" who for some reason have a grand time pointing they fingers and laying sole claim to certain things. Its absolutely ridiculous and tells me that these people are not only extremely insecure personally but that they have to need to knock someone else down in order to feel superior and have chosen their paths for all the wrong reasons.
No one should worry so much about what someone else is doing. Worry about yourself and what goes on in your life and if you aren't busy enough find a hobby to keep you busy and out of my home. How someone else decides to worship is no one elses business. If I wanted to wrap my naked body in tin foil and pretend that my hair is on fire as I pray to the Callieach while rubbing my tummy and patting my head its still no one elses business. And crying about it to everyone you talk to doesnt make you more important.. just a whiner.
I get extremely irritated by them lol. I have found that most of them live in glass houses and cannot back up anything they are claiming with logic or common sense.
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Post by ardri79 on Jun 30, 2006 3:23:03 GMT -5
Those are some good points.
BUT as a Wiccan you feel Gods call to you?
You mean those would be the Archetypes that resound most loudly within your own psyche and would be easiest for you to use in Ritual.
In my opinion that does not count as a God showing an interest in you.
Raeven you said natiionality means nothing to them?
where did you meet the Gaelic Gods, far be it from me to limit the power of a God but in my experiance the Gods are tied to parts of the land in Ireland and as they are our Gods we are their people we draw their interest because of that.
Its NOT that they are mine first its that Wicca (not witch craft) does not worship them as gods but as archetypes to aid in Ritual... Why use my gods as Archetypes thats the question i wanted an answer for.
Wren asked if I would find it offensive for her to use native American gods in her practice. Personally no but I met some first peoples in British Columbia who were offended beond words that people would take their land and then try and steal their Gods.
When I am in BC I honour them with sacrifice and aknowlege that this is their territory and I am a greatfull guest, I wouldnt call on them for anything though.
Then again I dont live there if you have a tie to the land it might be ok
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 30, 2006 3:39:42 GMT -5
Now the crux of what separates wicca from traditional paganism is their adaptation of jungian archatypes. In my opinion to decide the ancient gods of my people are all elements of your subconcious is insane. The current "trend" in Celtic Wicca has seen the gods of my culture whose worship has been preserved over centuries despite attempted genocide 9 famines religious oppression and censorship and the banning of all aspects of gaelic culture adopted by people who dont believe in gods and that belief is touted as "Celtic" Disrespectfull to everyone who fought to preserve our culture hugely disrespectfull to the Gods themselves and makes a celtic wiccan about as celtic as a brit on paddies day. I figure this is thepalce for the celtic wiccans to come out and tell me why WHY? I believe actually, the Brittish have some Celtic blood floating around in there too, though you do raise some interesting points I must admit. I'm on my lunch break just now so I can't really spen allot of time with this right now. Perhaps you can share exactly how you feel honoring and rememberance of the Gods in any form is disrespectful?
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 30, 2006 3:52:05 GMT -5
eh yes I would, because I havent said anything derogatory I have stated a fact and shared a grievance in a part of the site set aside for rants, it is a grievance you will find with every traditionalist from every country in the world. nothing is stopping celtic wiccans from harvesting my native culture without making any apology. In a site is full of fairly educated people who could answer the question I see no reason why I should change my post and be made to beg for an answer. No-one has asked you to beg or change your post, however this is a site with many paths, if you want to debate a particular path then you will do so respectfully or we will have a problem. While I've seen no actual flaming or trolling per say, some things can be seen as less than courteous. Please debate with facts and sources etc, and please keep it courteous. (that goes to everyone who involves themselves in this discussion). Admin.
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Post by Senbecc on Jun 30, 2006 8:48:58 GMT -5
Raeven you said natiionality means nothing to them? where did you meet the Gaelic Gods, far be it from me to limit the power of a God but in my experiance the Gods are tied to parts of the land in Ireland and as they are our Gods we are their people we draw their interest because of that. I must say Ardri, This is the post I found offencive. Am I to understand that you feel that because my feet tred American soil that I have no claim to the Irish Gods? Have I wasted my studies (and my life) pursuing Irish paganism I wonder, and what of Searls O'Dubhain as he too is American, is he also lost to the path he has chosen? It is MY knowledge, and MY expieriance sir that the ever living Sidhe live between lands, and live within the essences of what make a person a person, as well as their blood, their flesh, and their very 3-fold cosmos. They are the holes of the earth it's self. The islands to the west are many and varried, just as the creatures of nature that inhabbit them on all three levels. Am I to understand that you would limit these spirits to Ireland? Now granted one must learn of the lineage they choose to honor, and knowing the gods takes a GREAT deal of work, and I feel I have passed that test.
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